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US Intel

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Re: US Intel

#41

Post by wat10000 »

themgt wrote: post #7

I’ll be honest: there is a very good chance this won’t work .... At the same time, the China concerns are real, Intel Foundry needs a guarantee of existence to even court customers, and there really is no coming back from an exit. There won’t be a startup to fill Intel’s place. The U.S. will be completely dependent on foreign companies for the most important products on earth, and while everything may seem fine for t…

Intel was the best until fairly recently. Then they still looked like the best to a non-expert observer, and then still looked at least competitive until even more recently. The modern world changes too fast for our governments to adapt to. Especially when we're talking about state of the art semiconductors and our leader was born before the invention of the transistor.

Re: US Intel

#42

Post by franktankbank »

zoeysmithe wrote: post #15
themgt wrote: post #7

I’ll be honest: there is a very good chance this won’t work .... At the same time, the China concerns are real, Intel Foundry needs a guarantee of existence to even court customers, and there really is no coming back from an exit. There won’t be a startup to fill Intel’s place. The U.S. will be completely dependent on foreign companies for the most important products on earth, and while everything may seem fine for t…

There's a real folly in capitalist countries thinking they can be self-sufficient walled castles. Capitalism by its nature will seek out the lowest cost be it in labor or manufacturing. That means often means outsourcing. Our system has no breaks for this. In fact it works actively for this, hence the neolib ideal of "just move towards efficiencies, and let the chips fall where they may." This is ideal under capitali…

Efficiency is in tension with resilience. I think the pursuit of efficiency at the high end results in a less efficient system because of all the second order effects.

Re: US Intel

#43

Post by bilbo0s »

slt2021 wrote: post #27
Telemakhos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what is being said. The Intel stake is a first step to a US sovereign fund that will include ownership stakes in many corporations.

is merging interests of the state and corporations marks a return to good ole fascism ? or is it just an alternative way of taxing capital? instead of taxing wealth and capital, just take an equity stake in it ?

More an alternative way of controlling capital.

If you wanted to tax capital via equity stakes, you'd simply have demanded a much larger stake.

What we're doing is starting down the road of "capitalism with Chinese characteristics". It's a tacit admission that the Chinese model can be effective at achieving a nation's strategic economic goals. (More effective than the model we previously championed.)

The real flip side in all of this is that everyone else sees what we're doing for what it is, and they also implement capitalism with Chinese characteristics. Which in and of itself wouldn't be bad. But what if nations like India or Indonesia turn out to be just flat out better than us at it?

Or, God forbid, the nightmare scenario, which would be nations like Brazil being better than us at it?

Re: US Intel

#44

Post by baq »

gausswho wrote: post #33
baq wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The credit belongs to Laurence Britt. And this was for a poster briefly sold at the museum, not produced by it. Full text: https://secularhumanism.org/2003/03/fascism-anyone/

Thanks for the details, I was only aware of the museum bit.

Re: US Intel

#45

Post by estearum »

spacephysics wrote: post #17
ModernMech wrote: post #5

I don't understand how they can say Democrats are Communists while they do this. It's going to be interesting hearing everyone who spent decades spilling volumes about the evils of communism and the failure of the USSR quickly pivot to being champions of state capitalism.

I mean both sides are guilty. ‘08 saw us bail out banks and now the likes of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE’s. The difference with Intel vs the banks, is Intel has assets that take decade plus to procure (foundries), and not something easily replaceable. I think the US messed up big time in terms of national defense by not having some Gov program that does semiconductor manufacturing owned 100% from the start by…

Whereas with banks, their failure would've thrown the global economy into a deep depression?

Re: US Intel

#46

Post by rich_sasha »

I am torn on this.

On the one hand, I strongly agree with this article. This kind of state ownership never brings anyhing good. I don't see how this is different.

On the other, it is hard to deny how impressive the new wave of Chinese manufacturing is. No longer are they just making knock offs of Western products with stolen IP. BYD for example seems genuinely innovative, a top product. There are many other examples.

Now, these are clearly not state-ran enterprises, but equally the state is heavily involved. Or, Nvidia is concerned because China can mandate that the whole country pivots to using Chinese GPUs, seemingly with no deteiment to their AI research, while amazingly benefitting their own chip production ability.

I'm not sure how I reconcile these two.

Re: US Intel

#47

Post by baq »

9dev wrote: post #38
baq wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

As a German with extensive exposition to the third Reich I can attest to the fact that the parallels start to become uncanny.

I've been to Berlin this summer and I think every single citizen of any western democracy should see the still standing piece of the Berlin Wall and the museum bit that explains the 50 or so years that led to its construction. Even if only a quarter understood the message, we'd be better off as a civilization.

Alas, I'm afraid some people would take it as an instruction manual instead of a warning.

Re: US Intel

#48

Post by riahi »

spacephysics wrote: post #17
ModernMech wrote: post #5

I don't understand how they can say Democrats are Communists while they do this. It's going to be interesting hearing everyone who spent decades spilling volumes about the evils of communism and the failure of the USSR quickly pivot to being champions of state capitalism.

I mean both sides are guilty. ‘08 saw us bail out banks and now the likes of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE’s. The difference with Intel vs the banks, is Intel has assets that take decade plus to procure (foundries), and not something easily replaceable. I think the US messed up big time in terms of national defense by not having some Gov program that does semiconductor manufacturing owned 100% from the start by…

Which party was in power when 2008 happened?

Re: US Intel

#49

Post by wat10000 »

nyc_data_geek1 wrote: post #35
slt2021 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is merging interests of the state and corporations marks a return to good ole fascism ? or is it just an alternative way of taxing capital? instead of taxing wealth and capital, just take an equity stake in it ?

"Fascism should more properly be called Corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” — Benito Mussolini

"Corporate" in that quote refers to groups consisting of something like entire industries, including employees and employers, like a guild. It doesn't refer to a business legally recognized by the state as the word is commonly used today.

Re: US Intel

#50

Post by os2warpman »

spacephysics wrote: post #17
ModernMech wrote: post #5

I don't understand how they can say Democrats are Communists while they do this. It's going to be interesting hearing everyone who spent decades spilling volumes about the evils of communism and the failure of the USSR quickly pivot to being champions of state capitalism.

I mean both sides are guilty. ‘08 saw us bail out banks and now the likes of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE’s. The difference with Intel vs the banks, is Intel has assets that take decade plus to procure (foundries), and not something easily replaceable. I think the US messed up big time in terms of national defense by not having some Gov program that does semiconductor manufacturing owned 100% from the start by…

> now the likes of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE’s.

Uh.. they've been GSEs since their founding. (12 U.S. Code § 1717)

"Yeah but in 2008 the government bought shares in th.." Doesn't matter. Still GSEs before that. "But they were privatiz.." Doesn't matter. Still GSEs after that.

Every time someone says "both sides are the same" a billionaire flooding media with 'both sides' messaging in order to distract from what is going on's taint twitches.

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