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Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

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Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#41

Post by jccalhoun »

wrp wrote: post #30

Survey question: To what extent did blue book exams go away? When I started out (and the original Van Halen was still together), blue book exams were the norm in humanities classes. I've had narrow experience with American undergrad classes the past 25 years, so I don't have a feeling for how things have evolved.

I was an English major and Math minor in the 90s and I used them for one class - a history general studies requirement. All the essay tests in my other classes were on letter sized paper with blank space for us to write in.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#42

Post by Ekaros »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #35
noosphr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can’t use AI on a date, or at a dinner party, or during a board meeting. I get the same "you won't always have a calculator with you" vibes from 90s teachers chiding you to show your work when I hear people say stuff like this.

You say that like those teachers were incorrect. They were correct, and still are correct. You don't always have a computer to hand, and you do in fact need to be able to do basic math.

Also LLMs have fairly well proven that even if you have calculator you probably should have ability to do some sanity check on the answer. In case you hit wrong button for example. With LLMs they can be confidently wrong and unless you are able to tell you are out of luck...

Plus all about capability to actually retain whatever you ask from the model...

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#43

Post by MikeTheGreat »

ipcress_file wrote: post #37
wrp wrote: post #30

Survey question: To what extent did blue book exams go away? When I started out (and the original Van Halen was still together), blue book exams were the norm in humanities classes. I've had narrow experience with American undergrad classes the past 25 years, so I don't have a feeling for how things have evolved.

I've never stopped using them, with the exception of the pandemic year, when we were forced to run online exams. Why replace a system that generally works well with one that introduces additional potential problems?

Same here.

Online instruction / learning can work for some people, and that's good.

I don't understand how anyone ever thought that an online exam could be made secure. There's just no way to ensure that the person who registered for the course is the one taking the exam when you don't control anything about the hardware or location, when students have a wide variety of hardware that you must support, and any attempt at remove video monitoring of the exam immediately runs into scalability and privacy issues. Like, even if you're watching a video of the person taking the online exam, how do they prove that they didn't just hook up an extra keyboard, mouse and (mirrored) monitor for person #2 to take the exam for them while they do their best to type and/or mouse in a convincing way?

It also doesn't help that you periodically get students who will try to wheedle, whinge, and weasel their way into an online exam, but then bomb the in-person exam (it's so strange and totally unrelated that they really, really wanted to take an online exam instead of in-person!).

Ok, I'll stop ranting now :)

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#44

Post by [deleted] »

noosphr wrote: post #40
altairprime wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t equate trigonometry, which underpins the classic parabolic example you’re referring to, with critical reasoning in human conversation. One is situationally useful at best; the other is mandatory to prevent exploitation by malicious people. Mental quadratics may be appealing, but the ability to reason is the bare minimum. Besides: if you’re using a calculator or AI in a board meeting, you’re likely unprepar…

I'm not sure how you did proofs in trigonometry with a calculator.

[deleted]

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#45

Post by viccis »

i_dont_know_ wrote: post #14

I feel like these kind of things push us as a society to decide what exactly the purpose of school should be. Currently, it's been a place for acquiring skills but also a sorting mechanism for us to know who the "best" are... I think we've put too much focus on the sorting mechanism aspect, enticing many to cheat without thinking about the fact that in doing so they shortchange themselves of actual skills. I feel lik…

The current system "sorts" the students who "developed critical thinking skills" out from the ones who didn't put in effort. If there's no expectation that they'll be sorted thus, then the vast majority won't (and right now don't) bother with developing or exercising those skills. Usually they'll just put all their effort into the one or two classes they have that actually make them demonstrate mastery of the material.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#46

Post by altairprime »

cyberax wrote: post #32
altairprime wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t use AI on a date, or at a dinner party, or during a board meeting. Faking intelligence with AI only works in an online-exclusive modality, and there’s a lot of real world circumstances where being able to speak, reason, and interpret on the fly without resorting to a handheld teleprompter is necessary if you want to be viewed positively. I think a lot of people are going to be enraged when they discover that de…

> Can’t use AI on a date, or at a dinner party, or during a board meeting. Challenge accepted. One possible solution: https://github.com/RonSijm/ButtFish

Cheaters are universal no matter what social boundaries are defined, and neither high-bandwidth wireless signals nor onboard acoustic processing can be reliably performed within the human rectum to any reasonable degree of fidelity. If one would externalize basic critical reasoning skills, I encourage finding another location to store one’s supplemental cranium :)

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#47

Post by viccis »

xqcgrek2 wrote: post #3

How do blue book exams translate to real world problems the students will encounter? Why not open book + AI use exams, because that's what students will have in their careers?

Would you let a second grader take their spelling test using a word processor with a spell checker?

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#48

Post by altairprime »

noosphr wrote: post #40
altairprime wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t equate trigonometry, which underpins the classic parabolic example you’re referring to, with critical reasoning in human conversation. One is situationally useful at best; the other is mandatory to prevent exploitation by malicious people. Mental quadratics may be appealing, but the ability to reason is the bare minimum. Besides: if you’re using a calculator or AI in a board meeting, you’re likely unprepar…

I'm not sure how you did proofs in trigonometry with a calculator.

I ran my school district out of math to teach me in the 80s and ended up focusing on sysadmin in the 90s rather than repeating trigonometry or pursuing formal math at the local college. Sorry I can’t be of more use to your argument! Perhaps someone else will have applicable experiences.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#49

Post by wrp »

jccalhoun wrote: post #41
wrp wrote: post #30

Survey question: To what extent did blue book exams go away? When I started out (and the original Van Halen was still together), blue book exams were the norm in humanities classes. I've had narrow experience with American undergrad classes the past 25 years, so I don't have a feeling for how things have evolved.

I was an English major and Math minor in the 90s and I used them for one class - a history general studies requirement. All the essay tests in my other classes were on letter sized paper with blank space for us to write in.

You raise a good point. I've assumed that "blue book exam" is used as a generic term for in-class tests that consist of just essays, not necessarily using the physical Blue Books that you buy at the campus bookstore.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#50

Post by altairprime »

Ekaros wrote: post #42
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that like those teachers were incorrect. They were correct, and still are correct. You don't always have a computer to hand, and you do in fact need to be able to do basic math.

Also LLMs have fairly well proven that even if you have calculator you probably should have ability to do some sanity check on the answer. In case you hit wrong button for example. With LLMs they can be confidently wrong and unless you are able to tell you are out of luck... Plus all about capability to actually retain whatever you ask from the model...

Ironically, America finally automated one of our oldest workplace specialties: grifting! People overconfidently declaring made-up nonsense in board meetings is a classic executive behavior. I suppose it’ll be interesting to see what happens now that everyone has one in their pocket. Will their patter improve from exposure alone, or will they more easily detected because their skills weaken from disuse?
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