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The great medieval water myth (2013)

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Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#41

Post by IAmBroom »

raffael_de wrote: post #17

The relevance of beer with regard to water conservation and safe consumption is _not_ because the alcohol sterilizes the fluid. It's because successfully brewed and unfiltered beer forms a relatively stable ecosystem of unproblematic yeasts and lactic acid bacteria which prevent other unsafe micro organisms to take over and multiply. The hop is actually contributing to chemical conservation, though.

I'm not clear what you mean by "contributing to chemical conservation". They don't conserve anything, really.

Hops are antibiotic and antifungal in nature. That, combined with their mild flavor (compared to things like wormwood), is why they are synonymous with beer production today.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#42

Post by IAmBroom »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #28
legitster wrote: post #19

This isn't really a slam dunk debunking. I get that medieval people knew about good and bad water, and that they had other reasons to prefer small drinks. But it doesn't change the facts that: - Medieval people DID drink constantly (mostly in the form of small drinks) - SOME medieval didn't have access to consistently good water. - Even good water supplies can be tainted There are cases were it was noted that a disea…

Yeah, the article text seems to suggest that beer and wine are almost never drank in preference to water (though it never quite comes out and says that explicitly). But all the quotations put water, at best, as just a reasonable competitor, not a clear winner.

And as something a million times more affordable and easy to access, water being a reasonable competitor makes it a winner.

By analogy, Coke and mineral spring water both provide safe hydration. Yet more Coke is consumed by the average American.

It would be a myth to say Americans avoid Coke and prefer mineral water, because of the (random variable that doesn't wildly vary between the two drinks).

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#43

Post by IAmBroom »

eadmund wrote: post #13
mattlondon wrote: post #4

I always thought it quite weird that somehow by virtue of being in beer, that the water somehow becomes sterilised. If you've ever tried home brewing, you'll know that non-sterile conditions lead to foul rancid filth due to all the bacteria etc. I'd find it odd if the people then knew to sterlise the water and equipment to make beer, but then not do the same to drink it.

> I always thought it quite weird that somehow by virtue of being in beer, that the water somehow becomes sterilised. The reason that water in beer is sterilised is that beer is brewed — i.e. boiled. > If you've ever tried home brewing, you'll know that non-sterile conditions lead to foul rancid filth due to all the bacteria etc. I believe that pre–germ-theory brewing practices tended to discourage unwanted microbial…

Again, beer isn't boiled - as long as we're quashing myths here. It is heated.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#44

Post by IAmBroom »

raincole wrote: post #9
mattlondon wrote: post #4

I always thought it quite weird that somehow by virtue of being in beer, that the water somehow becomes sterilised. If you've ever tried home brewing, you'll know that non-sterile conditions lead to foul rancid filth due to all the bacteria etc. I'd find it odd if the people then knew to sterlise the water and equipment to make beer, but then not do the same to drink it.

The idea is by making it beer you keep safe water safe for longer. It doesn't sound particularly weird to me (I don't know if it was really a common practice in medieval Europe.)

That's a hypothesis. Provide any data whatsoever that this was a consideration.

Beer also makes water a more pleasant color. That too could be a reason to drink it. Or, either idea could be irrelevant.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#45

Post by IAmBroom »

swasheck wrote: post #14
Ekaros wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it I think was also that wine, but also likely beer was somewhat expensive. So adding water meant there was more liquid. Mass production and transportation of everything at scales we have is very recent. So adding water to wine made it last longer.

also, recalling from memory, standedge argues that the early perspective on wine was that it was simply a higher order of beer. it makes sense because there earliest beers were not hopped and would probably profile similarly to wine. however, grape cultivation was more difficult/technical than grain cultivation which elevated the class of wine. it was also prized for its relative stability when diluted, with some mai…

No, the ancients tended to be very exact with their beer/wine distinctions. There's separate English words for beer, wine, mead, herbed beer, herbed mead, fruited mead, cider, fruited cider, and so one.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#46

Post by IAmBroom »

nritchie wrote: post #21

This seems like an example of black and white thinking. Did they never drink water? beer? wine? Of course not. A better question - under what circumstances did they prefer beer? wine? cider? water? And later on tea? coffee? Etc?

Yes. But many myths are based on such black and white thinking.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#47

Post by IAmBroom »

firesteelrain wrote: post #23

Something to ponder Beer and wine, watered down, are medieval forms of soft drinks. People simply got tired of just drinking boring water. On top of that, you got a little buzz or it made you feel good like a soft drink might

Ironically, you almost can't get a buzz from small ales. I drank nothing but a homebrew small ale one hot August day, to test the theory. No buzz.

Now, beer consumed for recreational purposes certainly had effects!

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#48

Post by IAmBroom »

chiffre01 wrote: post #11

I always though it was after the middle ages that alcohol was consumed for safety reasons. I also remember hearing it wasn't really the general population, but sailors on ships because water on long voyages wouldn't stay fresh very long?

It's more about the vitamins beer provides.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#49

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

card_zero wrote: post #39
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #38

>> Why are people who have little or no firsthand knowledge of the Middle Ages absolutely convinced they know the facts on this issue? I used to have these arguments with an older relative, some acute, some chronic, about a) whether the edible part of an urchin is eggs or genitals [1], b) whether urchins with little pebbles and bits of seaweed on them are males, ornamented thusly to attract females [2], c) whether cy…

Sometime you may find this person has stealthily changed his or her mind, and now always thought the other thing, and if you say they previously thought the opposite, you're wrong about that.

Totally.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#50

Post by legitster »

IAmBroom wrote: post #40
legitster wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, beer production started with boiling the water. So in a sense you sterilize the water and the beer helped preserve it for storage. Watering down wine was also common in the era though, and the mechanism there implies the alcohol and acidity of the wine acted as a minor sterilizer.

Beer production does not involve boiling water. Alpha-Amylase conversion is optimal (for beer production) at about 140 F/60 C. Second and third extractions occur at about 155 and 175 F, respectively, well below the boiling point. More importantly, the first extraction only marginally reaches pasteurization temperatures (using low-temp long time parameters), so the majority of liquid in beer inhibits, but does not com…

If we're talking about medieval beer production, it certainly started with boiling the water.

In absence of temperature measurement, they would time how long the water had been off the boil before it would be used.

They also commonly believed that the boil was integral to the carbonation in the final product. That the amount of time spent boiling the water correlated to more bubbles in the beer, and would often do things like boil the water until it was half gone.

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