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In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

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Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#41

Post by CuriouslyC »

gerdesj wrote: post #37
CuriouslyC wrote: post #14

LLMs haven't made me dumber, but they have made me lazier. I think about writing code by hand now and groan.

So how do you interact with your LLM? (by hand perhaps?) I find prompt fettling a great way of getting to grips with a problem. If I can explain my problem effectively enough to get a reasonable start on an answer, then I likely thoroughly understand my problem. An LLM is like a really fancy slide rule or calculator (I own both). It does have a habit of getting pissed and talking bollocks periodically. Mind you, so d…

I voice chat with chatgpt to generate a very very detailed architecture document / spec / prd / whatever, in an implementation checklist order, then I take that and save it as a "VISION.md" file in the repo, and queue up a command for the agent to start working on the problem. I have detailed subagent and task forking logic in my claude setup, so I can get plans that involve 7-8 subagents (some being invoked by claude -p for parallel execution) and take a project from that spec to a very real project in ~6-8 hours, during which time my agents will typically phone home to see if they should continue maybe 2 or 3 times (I have anti stopping hooks but they're lazy SoBs).

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#42

Post by nomel »

sitzkrieg wrote: post #15
CuriouslyC wrote: post #14

LLMs haven't made me dumber, but they have made me lazier. I think about writing code by hand now and groan.

thats kinda embarrassing

Wait until you hear how code used to be written, and how "lazy" you have it!

Everyone, even yourself, enjoys things being easier, when moving towards a solution. Programming is a means to an end, to solve an actual problem.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#43

Post by hnuser123456 »

When working well, they enable us to offload needing to memorize a wikipedia worth of information and think about higher level problems. We become more intelligent at higher level solutions. Of course people don't know what was written if they were required to "submit an essay" where the main grade is whether or not they submitted one and the topic may have been one not interesting to them. Ask people to write essays about things they're truly, honestly interested in, and people who have access to an LLM are likely able to enrich their knowledge faster than those without.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#44

Post by pixl97 »

codespin wrote: post #25

Just as the engine replaced physical strength, artificial intelligence, through models like large language models, is now replacing cognitive labor and thought. From the article "Muscles grow by lifting weights" yet we do that now as a hobby and not as a critical job. I'm not sure I want to live in a world where thinking is a gym like activity, however if you go back 200 years it would probably be difficult to explai…

>back 200 years it would probably be difficult to explain the

"Almost everyone lives a life closer to that of nobility or the merchent class"

I'm sure the vast majority of the people from that time would rather live in ours if explained that way.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#45

Post by timoth3y »

deepsun wrote: post #10

Plato was against writing, as it makes us dumber. https://fs.blog/an-old-argument-against-writing/

There is some important nuance needed.

Plato was not against writing. In fact, he wrote prolifically. Plato's writings form the basis of Western Philosophy.

Plato's teacher Socrates was against writing, and Plato agreed that writing is inferior to dialog in some ways; memory, inquiry, deeper understanding, etc.

We know this because Plato wrote it all down.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Plato appreciated the advantages of both writing and the Socratic method.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#46

Post by TZubiri »

deepsun wrote: post #10

Plato was against writing, as it makes us dumber. https://fs.blog/an-old-argument-against-writing/

That's very interesting, especially as we think of Plato as philosophy that is learned by reading.

To some extent plato wrote though, which is mostly how we can learn about him, but most of his writings are dialogues between characters.

Also a lot of what we know is written by his disciples.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#47

Post by pixl97 »

Refreeze5224 wrote: post #28
deepsun wrote: post #10

Plato was against writing, as it makes us dumber. https://fs.blog/an-old-argument-against-writing/

I imagine his memory and those of people who memorized instead of wrote were better. So by that metric, writing is making people dumber. It's just not all that relevant today, and we don't prioritize memorization to the extent Plate and the ancient Greeks probably did.

Civilization is the process of externalizing our individual needs to others.

We externalize our information to books. We externalize our jobs to specialists. We externalize our shelter to home builders. We externalize our food to farmers. We externalize our water to manucipalities.

Individually we may be weaker because of it. Yet in the end we are all stronger, and now billions of us can live at levels unimaginable in the past.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#48

Post by nateglims »

The problem is in the chain of learning required to understand or master something. If you offload the foundational things that you learn and chunk you will hinder yourself. We can see this right now in the reading dilemma in US schools where early decoding skills were misunderstood and it lead to significant struggles later.

Re: In the long run, LLMs make us dumber

#49

Post by pixl97 »

sitzkrieg wrote: post #15
CuriouslyC wrote: post #14

LLMs haven't made me dumber, but they have made me lazier. I think about writing code by hand now and groan.

thats kinda embarrassing

Why?

Or are you growing everything you need to eat by yourself?

Keep it to programming then, I'm sure you write all your own libraries right? In assembly, that is.

Everything about modern life, especially programming is about enabling more with less work.

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