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Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

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Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#41

Post by nyeah »

modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

"They" are just some people who did an experiment on mice. They don't know the effects on humans. It sounds like you think you know more than they do. Ok.

A paper is not like a religious commandment or something. It's, best case, some mortals honestly trying to learn something. Scolding them for admitting the limits of their knowledge is not reasonable.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#42

Post by UncleOxidant »

modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

The comment I see right above yours says "there is no reliable Mouse Model for Alzheimer's." So it's certainly not a slam dunk that taking OTC lithium orotate is going to prevent Alzheimer's. Maybe it'll work? (but you won't know for decades) And maybe it's safe as long as you don't exceed the recommended dose, but there can be interactions with other meds you might be taking (some diuretics will cause you to concentrate lithium, for example).

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#43

Post by owenversteeg »

exmadscientist wrote: post #16
ninetyninenine wrote: post #8

Lithium is a strange drug. It also cures bipolar disorder and nobody knows why. It also fucks up the liver over time and basically people on lithium eventually have to make a choice between dying or being insane.

It's mostly the kidneys that get damaged, not so much the liver. It also has a massive amount of benign or merely annoying side effects. Lithium might even be the drug with the largest overall amount of side effects. It's certainly a weird one. High-dose lithium is extremely hard on your kidneys and may well lead to kidney failure in a decade or so. Medium-dose lithium is a lot more gentle but still requires monitori…

I have to say that I think the current popular idea of "we know how X drug works in the body because it does Y to Z" is patently insane. It may be useful information, sure, but it's not really _why_ it works, because we don't understand how the body works. It would be like Toyota saying: "the Corolla works on gasoline because it burns inside the engine, but we have no idea why the engine breaks when you put acetone in it." It would be obvious that Toyota had no goddamn clue what was going on in the engine! And yet, that's exactly where we are with most drugs including lithium; most of these so-called mechanisms would work on rubidium, so why does rubidium have different effects? Who knows!

If you read a literature review for lithium's mechanism of action, it's a wild ride [0] that clearly demonstrates exactly how little we know. More importantly, though, is that all of this is made up ex post facto. Nobody can take a _new_ drug and tell you anything concrete about what it will do or how it will work: instead, we look at what happens and _then_ we make crude guesses. It is essentially modern miasma theory. For those who have forgotten, the application of miasma theory built our first sanitation systems, which eliminated more deaths from disease than the entirety of vaccines. That is to say: just because we are groping in the dark does not make the work useless, and indeed, our first vaccines were also constructed with very primitive methods.

I think that a more concrete understanding of the human body can only come when we start to understand all the many pathways of life in/on/around the body. Right now, our technology constrains us to investigate only individual points in mostly static ways. Give it a few decades of advancement and I bet we'll have some fascinating insights. I would also bet that, as with any complex system, there will be no simple answers to how things work.

-----------

For what it's worth, in the specific case of lithium, the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists would agree with me that the mechanism of action is unknown: https://www.drugs.com/monograph/lithium.html

[0] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40263-013-0039-0

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#44

Post by bawolff »

wonderwonder wrote: post #15
cubefox wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're going to need a much better explanation of why people shouldn't try it. Clinical trials need many participants and take a long time, and they require a control group which doesn't take lithium orotate. Finding these people might be hard if everyone is taking it anyway.

So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents? I don't really understand this mindset. I already ordered 5mg tablets of lithium orate as soon as I read this. I…

> So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it?

And if it actually makes Alzheimer's worse?

We are talking about a mouse model of a disease that very famously doesn't work the same way in mice and humans. The most likely scenario is it does nothing. With this level of evidence you might as well just eat random garbage off the ground in the off chance it helps.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#45

Post by Aurornis »

modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

I tried Lithium Orotate at the typical supplement dose. After the first week it left me feeling rather blah. Discontinuing it reversed the feeling after a few days.

I repeated this a couple more times with a repeatable outcome.

It’s very hyped in supplement communities with claims that it’s perfectly safe and side effect free. I didn’t get any kidney damage or anything, but I also didn’t get a positive benefit from it. Only subtle negatives that built up over a week.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#46

Post by modeless »

hollerith wrote: post #23
jsbisviewtiful wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I reject this kind of blind safetyism. You said you searched to learn more about lithium, but somehow missed that it's highly recommended to be administered by doctors due to side effects after long term use. Anything that damages your kidneys or thyroids can kill you, so calling it "blind safetyism" is silly.

The kidney damage, etc, are consequences of the very high doses of lithium needed to control bipolar disorder. Most experts who have been recommending lithium supplementation to support general health recommend doses about 100 or 300 times lower.

Exactly. An "exquisitely low dose" should be safe. And Alzheimer's also kills you, after making life no longer worth living. For people who already have it, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't try an appropriate dose.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#47

Post by Aurornis »

lawlessone wrote: post #26
modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

I've heard of suggestions that it should be added to water(in low doses of course) to see it reduces suicide rates. I like the idea but can only imagine the anti-flouride crowd would freak out.

I tried the low-dose lithium orotate supplements and the net effect was apathy and reduced motivation. Not everyone experiences this but from searching I’m not alone.

Definitely not something to start pouring into the water supply.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#49

Post by a5c11 »

cubefox wrote: post #14
MaxPock wrote: post #2

Things I love to read. I went to visit my aunt one day, and my favourite uncle couldn't recognize me. It made me think that Alzheimer's is probably the worst thing that could happen to a person. I mean, what's worse than not being able to recognize those closest to you? You work a lifetime, and then you go out in such an undignified manner. I pray for a cure in my lifetime.

> It made me think that Alzheimer's is probably the worst thing that could happen to a person. Alzheimer's is slowly destroying the person, but this might in some cases be not as bad as diseases which leave the person in place but make them suffer intensely, e.g. from pain or depression. Though it's hard to compare.

I'll take pain over slowly reversing to fetal brain development. My grandma had it, and it was freaking sad to watch her lose all body functions. I've already made a decision that when I spot first symptoms, and there won't be a cure, I'll finish all my earthly stuff, and will buy some good morphine.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#50

Post by nartho »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #8

Lithium is a strange drug. It also cures bipolar disorder and nobody knows why. It also fucks up the liver over time and basically people on lithium eventually have to make a choice between dying or being insane.

I have (had?) a chronic skin condition called seborrheic dermatitis. It manifested as dry cracks over my lips and cheekbones exuding an orange/yellow liquid. It was itchy and looked absolutely disgusting. It would stay there for a few weeks and then come back in a few months. Treatment was cortisone which reduced the time it would but it would always reappear a couple of months later, it'd also lose effectiveness. Then my dermatologist prescribed a new lithium based treatment (Lithioderm) and after a first treatment, I got a couple of progressively smaller outbreaks, and it's never reappeared since then, it's been 20 years. I don't think we know how or why it works but I'm glad it did.
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