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Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

arstechnica.com

41–50 of 145 posts

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not a bold assumption? Unless we can somehow bio engineer our bodies to heal without needing any external intervention, we're going to need surgery for healthcare purposes

Well, it depends on your definition of 'surgery'. One could well imagine that transplanting your conscience into a new body might well be feasible before we get to live on Mars.

Where does one find a new body ready for consciousness transplant? Would we grow them in farms like in the Matrix?

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#42
post #35

If Waymo has taught me anything, it’s that people will eventually accept robotic surgeons. It won’t happen overnight but once the data shows overwhelming superiority, it’ll be adopted.

Yeah, if there's overwhelming superiority, why not? But a lot of surgeries are special corner cases. How do you train for those?

I don't care whether human surgeons or robotic surgeons are better at what they do. I just want more money to go to whoever owns the equipment, and less to go to people in my community.

It's called capitalism, sweaty

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#43
post #35

If Waymo has taught me anything, it’s that people will eventually accept robotic surgeons. It won’t happen overnight but once the data shows overwhelming superiority, it’ll be adopted.

Yeah, if there's overwhelming superiority, why not? But a lot of surgeries are special corner cases. How do you train for those?

By collecting data where you can and further generalizing models so they can perform surgeries that it wasn't specifically trained on.

Until then, the overseeing physician identifies when an edge case is happening and steps in for a manual surgery.

This isn't a mandate that every surgery must be done with an AI-powered robot, but that they are becoming more effective and cheaper than real doctors at the surgeries they can perform. So, naturally, they will become more frequently used.

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If?" This thing has a goddamn LLM at its core. That's true for most advanced robotics projects those days. Every time you see an advanced robot designed to perform complex real world tasks, you bet your ass there's an LLM in it, used for high level decision-making.

No surgery is not token based. It's a different aspect of intelligence. While technically speaking, the entire universe can be serialized into tokens it's not the most efficient way to tackle every problem. For surgery It's 3D space and manipulating tools and performing actions. It's better suited for standard ML models... for example I don't think Waymo self driving cars use LLMs.

The AI on display, Surgical Robot Transformer[1], is based on the work of Action Chunking with Transformers[2]. These are both transformer models, which means they are fundamentally token-based. The whitepapers go into more detail on how tokenization occurs (it's not text, like an LLM, they are patches of video/sensor data and sequences of actions).

Why wouldn't you look this up before stating it so confidentally? The link is at the top of this very page.

EDIT: I looked it up because I was curious. For your chosen example, Waymo, they also use (token based) transformer models for their state tracking.[3]

[1]: https://surgical-robot-transformer.github.io/

[2]: https://tonyzhaozh.github.io/aloha/

[3]: https://waymo.com/research/stt-stateful-tracking-with-transf...

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology and the bureaucracy that is spawned from it destroys accountability. Who gets the blame when a giant corporation with thousands of employees cuts corners to re-design an old plane to keep up with the competition and two of those planes crash killing hundreds of people? No one. Because you can't point the finger at any one or two individuals; decision making has been de-centralized and accountability with i…

[flagged]

If you say so

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology and the bureaucracy that is spawned from it destroys accountability. Who gets the blame when a giant corporation with thousands of employees cuts corners to re-design an old plane to keep up with the competition and two of those planes crash killing hundreds of people? No one. Because you can't point the finger at any one or two individuals; decision making has been de-centralized and accountability with i…

[flagged]

> or you can fix the system so that it doesn't happen again

Or you can not fix the system, because nobody's accountable for the system so it's nobody's job to fix the system, and everyone kinda wants it to be fixed but it's not their job, yaknow?

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the more time goes by, the more I prefer robot surgeons and assisted surgeons. The skill of these only improves and will reach a level where the most common robots exceed the 90th, and eventually 95th percentiles. Do we really want to be in a world where surgeon scarcity is a thing?

> Do we really want to be in a world where surgeon scarcity is a thing? Surgeon scarcity is entirely artificial. There are far more capable people than positions. Do we really want to live in a world where human experts are replaced with automation?

I used to think this myself in the past, but my opinion has shifted over time.

If a surgeon needs to do X number of cases to become independently competent in a certain type of surgery and we want to graduate Y surgeons per year, then we need at least X * Y patients who require that kind of surgery every year.

At a certain point increasing Y requires you to decrease X and that's going to cut into surgeon quality.

Over time, I've come to appreciate that X * Y is often lower than I thought. There was a thread on reddit earlier this week about how open surgeries for things like gall bladder removal are increasingly rare nowadays, and most general surgeons who trained in the past 15 years don't feel comfortable doing them. So in the rare cases where an open approach is required they rely on their senior partners to step in. What happens when those senior partners retire?

Now some surgeries are important but not urgent, so you can maintain a low double digit number of hyperspecialists serving the entire country and fly patients over to them when needed. But for urgent surgeries where turnaround has to be in a matter of hours to days, you need a certain density of surgeons with the proper expertise across the country and that brings you back to the X * Y problem.

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If?" This thing has a goddamn LLM at its core. That's true for most advanced robotics projects those days. Every time you see an advanced robot designed to perform complex real world tasks, you bet your ass there's an LLM in it, used for high level decision-making.

No surgery is not token based. It's a different aspect of intelligence. While technically speaking, the entire universe can be serialized into tokens it's not the most efficient way to tackle every problem. For surgery It's 3D space and manipulating tools and performing actions. It's better suited for standard ML models... for example I don't think Waymo self driving cars use LLMs.

Current Waymos do use the transformer architecture, they're still predicting tokens.

Re: Experimental surgery performed by AI-driven surgical robot

#50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not a bold assumption? Unless we can somehow bio engineer our bodies to heal without needing any external intervention, we're going to need surgery for healthcare purposes

Well, it depends on your definition of 'surgery'. One could well imagine that transplanting your conscience into a new body might well be feasible before we get to live on Mars.

I am not remotely convinced that "transplanting consciousness" is a thing that is even possible

At best we may eventually be able to copy a consciousness, but that isn't the same thing

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