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When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

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Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#41
The web is a platform that has so much unrealized potential that is absolutely wasted.

Wasm is the perfect example of this - it has the potential to revolutionize web (and desktop GUI) development but it hasn't progressed beyond niche single threaded use cases in basically 10 years.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#42
I have zero experience with anything wasm, just regular old DOM with typescript, but I wonder if this is the kind of problem that could be addressed the same way that phoenix liveview addesses frontend updates, by message passing only with diff changes, and delegate the Dom manipulation to what works, effective modelling the wasm runtime as an actor.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#43

The web is a platform that has so much unrealized potential that is absolutely wasted. Wasm is the perfect example of this - it has the potential to revolutionize web (and desktop GUI) development but it hasn't progressed beyond niche single threaded use cases in basically 10 years.

It should never have been web assembly. WASM is the fulfillment of the dream that started with Java VM in the 90’s but never got realized. A performant, truly universal virtual machine for write-once, run anywhere deployment. The web part is a distraction IMHO.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#44
This is one of those self-taught versus college educated subjects. See this for some background https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44599228

This subject is interesting because your typical college educated developer HATES the DOM with extreme passion, because it’s entirely outside their area of comfort. The typical college educated developer is typically educated to program in something like Java, C#, or C++ and is how the world is supposed to work. The DOM doesn’t work like that. It’s a graph of nodes in the form of a tree model, and many developers find that to be scary shit. That’s why we have things like jQuery, Angular, and React.

These college educated developers also hate JavaScript for the same reasons. It doesn’t behave like Java. So for many developers the only value of WASM is as JavaScript replacement. WASM was never intended or positioned to be a JavaScript replacement so it doesn’t get used very often.

Think about how bloated and slow the web could become if WASM were a JavaScript replacement. Users would have to wait on all the run time and dependencies to download into the WASM sandbox and then open like a desktop application, but then all that would get wrapped in something like Angular or React because the DOM is still scary.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#45

The web is a platform that has so much unrealized potential that is absolutely wasted. Wasm is the perfect example of this - it has the potential to revolutionize web (and desktop GUI) development but it hasn't progressed beyond niche single threaded use cases in basically 10 years.

Curious: what are the cases you want that a currently blocked?

I’ve personally felt like it has been progressing, but I’m hoping you can expand my understanding!

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#46

The web is a platform that has so much unrealized potential that is absolutely wasted. Wasm is the perfect example of this - it has the potential to revolutionize web (and desktop GUI) development but it hasn't progressed beyond niche single threaded use cases in basically 10 years.

It should never have been web assembly. WASM is the fulfillment of the dream that started with Java VM in the 90’s but never got realized. A performant, truly universal virtual machine for write-once, run anywhere deployment. The web part is a distraction IMHO.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#47

Law of question marks on headlines holds here: no / never seems to be the answer. Article l also discussed ref types, which do exist and do provide... Something. Some ability to at least refer to host objects. It's not clear what that enables or what it's limitstions are. Definitely some feeling of being rug-pulled in the shift here. It felt like there was a plan for good integration, but fast forward half a decade+…

"Definitely some feeling of being rug-pulled in the shift here." Definitely feeling rug-pulled. What I think all the people that hark on the "Don't worry, going through JS is good enough for you." are missing is the subtext of their message. They might objectively be right, but in the end what they are saying is that they are content with WASM being a second class citizen in the web world. This might be fine for ever…

One could say second class, another could say that's a good separation of concerns. Having direct access would lead to additional security issues and considerations.

I wish it was possible to disable WASM in browsers.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#48
DOM is so dynamic, any integration with DOM will look no different than the way we do it now through JS. JS is built to work naturally with DOM.

Maybe we should stop overdesigning things and keep it simple. WASM needs more tooling around primitive types, threading, and possibly a more flexible memory layout than what we have now.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should never have been web assembly. WASM is the fulfillment of the dream that started with Java VM in the 90’s but never got realized. A performant, truly universal virtual machine for write-once, run anywhere deployment. The web part is a distraction IMHO.

Why did Java fail though, and why would wasm succeed when the underlying philosophy is the same?

abundance of the runtime, ease of distribution of programs, the permission model which was bolted on, appropriate sandboxing mechanism leading to authorisation problems and performance when people were not ready to sacrifice a very significant amount for no reason.

Oh, and breaking changes between versions meaning you needed multiple runtimes and still got weird issues in some cases.

Re: When Is WebAssembly Going to Get DOM Support?

#50

The web is a platform that has so much unrealized potential that is absolutely wasted. Wasm is the perfect example of this - it has the potential to revolutionize web (and desktop GUI) development but it hasn't progressed beyond niche single threaded use cases in basically 10 years.

Give me one thing that your theoretical WASM can "revolutionize". Aside from more efficient covert crypto mining on shady sites.
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