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Writing is thinking

nature.com

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Re: Writing is thinking

#41

Post by abound »

bwfan123 wrote: post #36

We may enter a vicious loop where writing is increasingly generated by LLMs. Then, LLMs have to train on their own output leading to model collapse. Hence, the models depend on human writing.

This intuitively makes sense (like deep-frying a JPEG), but it doesn't seem to happen in practice, as modern models are frequently trained on text both output from other models, and curated from other models.

Realistically, going forward model training will just need to incorporate a step to remove data below some quality threshold, LLM-generated or otherwise.

Re: Writing is thinking

#43

Post by nicolapede »

spyckie2 wrote: post #31
jll29 wrote: post #12

To add: Reading is also thinking (ideally). And because reading and writing are thinking we must not delegate it to AI models as a matter of habit. In particular, during students' formative time, they need to learn how to think in reading and writing mode - reflecting, note-taking etc. Compare it with the use of a pocket calculator: once you have a solid grounding, it's fine to use electronic calculators, but first o…

I really think the effects of LLMs on thinking is the exact same as a calculator. It shortcuts some forms of thinking to open up other forms of thinking. My thinking has increased with the use of LLMs, not decreased, most likely because LLMs take the edge off of grind work like reading a lot of noise to capture the 1% signal, formulating accurate statements for abstract ideas, and bringing together various domains th…

>> But allowing calculators WILL make those who like math reach much deeper into the field than without.

Have you ever run into any mathematician that praised the calculator for his/her career? I’d be really curious to read about that.

Re: Writing is thinking

#44

Post by zahlman »

cubefox wrote: post #28

This is an important point: > For example, LLMs can aid in improving readability and grammar, which might be particularly useful to those for which English is not their first language. I don't know whether this has been empirically confirmed, but I have the strong belief that a manuscript with poor grammar, by a non-native English speaker, has a much higher probability of being rejected than the same manuscript but c…

Meanwhile, more and more posts on discussion forums etc. is clearly "copyedited" by these tools and the result is quite grating for the regulars.

Re: Writing is thinking

#45

Post by alliancedamages »

While the article’s point seems intuitively true, it cites only two papers related to the benefits of handwriting. But it’s argument is stronger than that. Is there peer-reviewed evidence to support the stronger claim of the benefits of typewriting?

Re: Writing is thinking

#46

Post by cubefox »

zahlman wrote: post #44
cubefox wrote: post #28

This is an important point: > For example, LLMs can aid in improving readability and grammar, which might be particularly useful to those for which English is not their first language. I don't know whether this has been empirically confirmed, but I have the strong belief that a manuscript with poor grammar, by a non-native English speaker, has a much higher probability of being rejected than the same manuscript but c…

Meanwhile, more and more posts on discussion forums etc. is clearly "copyedited" by these tools and the result is quite grating for the regulars.

Probably less grating though than broken English. (Copyediting is also different from pure LLM replies which don't involve editing anything.)

Re: Writing is thinking

#47

Post by iambateman »

Using an LLM is also thinking, when used as such.

This morning I asked ChatGPT a question about how Quickbooks handles charts of accounts compared to NetSuite. It answered my question better than anything else would have.

Also, I'm currently using Claude Code to fix some bugs -- it's handling the heavy lifting while I think about what needs to happen.

I'm in favor of human writing as an underrated tool of culture-making...but the scope of what counts as "thinking" is expanding.

Re: Writing is thinking

#49

Post by bombela »

spyckie2 wrote: post #31
jll29 wrote: post #12

To add: Reading is also thinking (ideally). And because reading and writing are thinking we must not delegate it to AI models as a matter of habit. In particular, during students' formative time, they need to learn how to think in reading and writing mode - reflecting, note-taking etc. Compare it with the use of a pocket calculator: once you have a solid grounding, it's fine to use electronic calculators, but first o…

I really think the effects of LLMs on thinking is the exact same as a calculator. It shortcuts some forms of thinking to open up other forms of thinking. My thinking has increased with the use of LLMs, not decreased, most likely because LLMs take the edge off of grind work like reading a lot of noise to capture the 1% signal, formulating accurate statements for abstract ideas, and bringing together various domains th…

Google search has worsened so badly. That right know it's impossible to resist using one of those free for a taste LLM service.

And the feeling is similar to how using Google on the 2004-2014 web was.

It used to be Google would return a huge list or relevant links. Loading all of them was quick. Skimming the content was quick.

Now every search is a massive ad. Every site is slow to load full of ads and useless slop. Slop which was written manually at first, then accelerated with Markov chains, now at light speed with LLMs.

So an LLM is required to filter through the LLM slop to find the tiny bit of real content.

Re: Writing is thinking

#50

Post by JyB »

jll29 wrote: post #12

To add: Reading is also thinking (ideally). And because reading and writing are thinking we must not delegate it to AI models as a matter of habit. In particular, during students' formative time, they need to learn how to think in reading and writing mode - reflecting, note-taking etc. Compare it with the use of a pocket calculator: once you have a solid grounding, it's fine to use electronic calculators, but first o…

There is something much deeper going on when you force yourself to actually write things down. This is especially relevant in engineering. That is why "RFCs" are so prevalent in many tech companies. They are often just as useful to the writer as they are to the reviewers.
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