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Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

antirez.com

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Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#41

Post by airstrike »

dakiol wrote: post #37
azan_ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paid models are just much, much better.

Of course they are. I wouldn't expect otherwise :) But the price we're paying (and I don't mean money) is very high, imho. We all talk about how good engineers write code that depends on high-level abstractions instead of low-level details, allowing us to replace third party dependencies easily and test our apps more effectively, keeping the core of our domain "pure". Well, isn't it time we started doing the same wit…

None of that applies here since we could all easily switch to open models at a moment's notice with limited costs. In fact, we switch between proprietary models every few months.

It just so happens that closed models are better today.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#42

Post by airstrike »

lmeyerov wrote: post #22
dcre wrote: post #17

“Always be part of the loop by moving code by hand from your terminal to the LLM web interface: this guarantees that you follow every process. You are still the coder, but augmented.” I agree with this, but this is why I use a CLI. You can pipe files instead of copying and pasting.

Yeah it is also a bit of a shibboleth: vibes coding, when I'm productive for the 80% case with Claude code, is about the LLM cranking for 10-20min. I'm instructing & automating the LLM on how to do its own context management, vs artisanally making every little decision. Ex: Implementing a spec, responding to my review comments, adding wider unit tests, running a role play for usability testing, etc. The main time we…

Your strategy only works for some domains.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#43

Post by dakiol »

azan_ wrote: post #40
dakiol wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they are. I wouldn't expect otherwise :) But the price we're paying (and I don't mean money) is very high, imho. We all talk about how good engineers write code that depends on high-level abstractions instead of low-level details, allowing us to replace third party dependencies easily and test our apps more effectively, keeping the core of our domain "pure". Well, isn't it time we started doing the same wit…

> I'm not talking about MCP, but rather an open source tool that can plug into either free and open source LLMs or private ones. That would at least allow us to switch to a free and opensource version if the companies behind the private LLMs go rogue. I'm afraid tho that wouldn't be enough, but it's a starting point. There are open source tools that do exactly that already.

Ah, well that's nice. But every single post I read don't mention them? So, I assume they are not popular for some reason. Again, my main point here is: the normalization of using private LLMs. I don't see anyone talking about it; we are all just handing over a huge part of what it means to build software to a couple of enterprises whose goal is, of course, to maximize profit. So, yeah, perhaps I'm overthinking I don't know; I just don't like that now these companies are so ingrained in the act of building software (just like AWS is so ingrained in the act of running software)

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#44

Post by wepple »

dakiol wrote: post #39
muglug wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming used to be (and still is, to a large extent) an activity that can be done with open and free tools. Yet JetBrains has been a business longer than some of my colleagues have been alive, and Microsoft’s Visual Basic/C++/Studio made writing software for Windows much easier, and did not come cheap.

I see a big difference: I do use Jetbrains IDEs (they are nice), but I can switch to vim (or vscode) any time if I need to (e.g., let's say Jetbrains increase their price to a point that doesn't make sense, or perhaps they introduce a pervasive feature that cannot be disabled). The problem with paid LLMs is that one cannot easily switch to open-source ones (because they are not as good as the paid ones). So, it's a d…

Anyone can switch from Claude to llama?

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#45

Post by jstanley »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #32
brokencode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it even more sad when people come out of the woodwork on every LLM post to tell us that our positive experiences using LLMs are imagined and we just haven’t realized how bad they are yet.

Could it not be that those positive experiences are just shining a light that the practices before using an LLM were inefficient? It’s more a reflection on the pontificator than anything.

Tautologically so! That doesn't show that LLMs are useless, it perfectly shows how they are useful.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#46

Post by airstrike »

I think all conversations about coding with LLMs, vibe coding, etc. need to note the domain and choice of programming language.

IMHO those two variables are 10x (maybe 100x) more explanatory than any vibe coding setup one can concoct.

Anyone who is befuddled by how the other person {loves, hates} using LLMs to code should ask what kind of problem they are working on and then try to tackle the same problem with AI to get a better sense for their perspective.

Until then, every one of these threads will have dozens of messages saying variations of "you're just not using it right" and "I tried and it sucks", which at this point are just noise, not signal.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#47

Post by eevmanu »

dakiol wrote: post #39
muglug wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming used to be (and still is, to a large extent) an activity that can be done with open and free tools. Yet JetBrains has been a business longer than some of my colleagues have been alive, and Microsoft’s Visual Basic/C++/Studio made writing software for Windows much easier, and did not come cheap.

I see a big difference: I do use Jetbrains IDEs (they are nice), but I can switch to vim (or vscode) any time if I need to (e.g., let's say Jetbrains increase their price to a point that doesn't make sense, or perhaps they introduce a pervasive feature that cannot be disabled). The problem with paid LLMs is that one cannot easily switch to open-source ones (because they are not as good as the paid ones). So, it's a d…

Open-weight and open-source LLMs are improving as well. While there will likely always be a gap between closed, proprietary models and open models, at the current pace the capabilities of open models could match today’s closed models within months.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#48

Post by throwaway8879p »

dakiol wrote: post #39
muglug wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming used to be (and still is, to a large extent) an activity that can be done with open and free tools. Yet JetBrains has been a business longer than some of my colleagues have been alive, and Microsoft’s Visual Basic/C++/Studio made writing software for Windows much easier, and did not come cheap.

I see a big difference: I do use Jetbrains IDEs (they are nice), but I can switch to vim (or vscode) any time if I need to (e.g., let's say Jetbrains increase their price to a point that doesn't make sense, or perhaps they introduce a pervasive feature that cannot be disabled). The problem with paid LLMs is that one cannot easily switch to open-source ones (because they are not as good as the paid ones). So, it's a d…

People who understand the importance of this choice but still opt for closed source software are the worst of the worst.

You won’t be able to switch to a meaningful vim if you channel your support to closed source software, not for long.

Best to put money where the mouth is.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#49

Post by logsr »

on_the_train wrote: post #26
brokencode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it even more sad when people come out of the woodwork on every LLM post to tell us that our positive experiences using LLMs are imagined and we just haven’t realized how bad they are yet.

If LLMs were actually useful, there would be no need to scream it everywhere. On the contrary: it would be a guarded secret.

posting a plain text description of your experience on a personal blog isn't exactly screaming. in the noise of the modern internet this would be read by nobody if it wasn't coming from one of the most well known open source software creators of all time.

people who believe in open source don't believe that knowledge should be secret. i have released a lot of open source myself, but i wouldn't consider myself a "true believer." even so, i strongly believe that all information about AI must be as open as possible, and i devote a fair amount of time to reverse engineering various proprietary AI implementations so that i can publish the details of how they work.

why? a couple of reasons:

1) software development is my profession, and i am not going to let anybody steal it from me, so preventing any entity from establishing a monopoly on IP in the space is important to me personally.

2) AI has some very serious geopolitical implications. this technology is more dangerous than the atomic bomb. allowing any one country to gain a monopoly on this technology would be extremely destabilizing to the existing global order, and must be prevented at all costs.

LLMs are very powerful, they will get more powerful, and we have not even scratched the surface yet in terms of fully utilizing them in applications. staying at the cutting edge of this technology, and making sure that the knowledge remains free, and is shared as widely as possible, is a natural evolution for people who share the open source ethos.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#50

Post by dakiol »

wepple wrote: post #44
dakiol wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a big difference: I do use Jetbrains IDEs (they are nice), but I can switch to vim (or vscode) any time if I need to (e.g., let's say Jetbrains increase their price to a point that doesn't make sense, or perhaps they introduce a pervasive feature that cannot be disabled). The problem with paid LLMs is that one cannot easily switch to open-source ones (because they are not as good as the paid ones). So, it's a d…

Anyone can switch from Claude to llama?

I don't think so. Let's do a silly experiment: antirez, could you ditch Gemini 2.5 PRO and Claude Opus 4, and instead use llama? Like never again go back to Gemini/Claude. I don't think he can (I don't think he would want to). I this is not on antirez, this is on everyone who's paying for LLMs at the moment: they are paying for them because they are so damn good compared to the open source ones... so there's no incentive to switch. But again, that's like the climate change: there's no incentive to pollute less (well, perhaps to save us, but money is more important).
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