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There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

eukaryotewritesblog.com

41–50 of 67 posts

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#41
post #38

Well, the name is not the thing named, so ultimately there is no such thing as anything. See also "ceci n'est pas une pipe".

True but the wrong point here. Lots of different and only loosely related types of plant have evolved to be tall with thick strong stems to get above other plants and capture the light. That is a way of growing, and we call it a tree, but the point here is not "trees do not exist" but "lots of totally different unrelated types of plant came up with being tree-shaped independently."

And we name them 'tree' because they have a certain shape and configuration. Then we created taxonomies and "discover" that tree isn't a single thing

We seem to cling too tightly to definition, as the expense of paying attention to the things as they are.

My point is resonant with the piece because it illustrates that conventional naming doesn't match taxonometric systematisation. I am happy to be wrong though, if it makes you feel better.

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#42
post #21

What is this "there no fish" thing? The blog link takes to a British show.

Cladistically you can decide: a) There are fish. Sharks are fish. Trout are fish. So therefore humans are fish as we are more related to trout than we are to sharks. This is basically saying that "fish" is roughly the same as "any vertebrate" or "any vertebrate with teeth" (depending on where you draw the line). or b) There is no such thing as a fish. There are THREE things: sharks/rays, ray finned fishes, and lobed…

> we are more related to trout than we are to sharks

wait what

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#43
post #38

Well, the name is not the thing named, so ultimately there is no such thing as anything. See also "ceci n'est pas une pipe".

True but the wrong point here. Lots of different and only loosely related types of plant have evolved to be tall with thick strong stems to get above other plants and capture the light. That is a way of growing, and we call it a tree, but the point here is not "trees do not exist" but "lots of totally different unrelated types of plant came up with being tree-shaped independently."

Also missing from “no such thing as” discussions is the idea that it’s perfectly fine and useful to use the word tree casually when the general shape and appearance are what matters, and also perfectly fine to want to avoid that term when something more precise is what matters.

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#44
post #18

It’s occurred to me before (and I’m sure to someone thinking more seriously about it) that our way of categorizing organisms seems to be ultimately based on their origin, and not on something…more beneficial to the human experience, or more in-line with aesthetics and colors, or in some other way. In other words, it is a deliberate choice to “taxonomize” organisms by their origins, and not by some other thing. This s…

You've got that exactly backwards. Humans say "fish" and "tree". That's the entire point of the article.

I think it's the case that both these systems can, should, and do coexist. When doing research or development, precision is more important than immediate grasp-ability. With people in general conversation, we operate on rules of thumb and appearances really do sometimes matter more than rigor. Colloquial speech then takes precedence, even if it is imprecise.

This article is nice because it is both interesting in the purely rigorous sense (phylogenetically), and it highlights this divide between precise definitions and the words we find useful (most of all in that catchy title!).

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an analysis of the term "man" which is, at the very least, overly specialised to a technical reading in rhetorical or cultural analysis. In areas of cultural analysis, terms are often read rhetorically, meaning as merely social actions with a persuasive or claim-making intent. E.g., to say "I know that ball will go in the net!!" isn't a claim involving actual knowledge, but something like a rhetorical act whi…

Um... maybe I just need some coffee, or maybe I need more knowledge of philosophy. Would you be able to dumb that down a bit, or summarise?

What does the term "man" mean in the assertion, "I am a man!"

Two interpretations:

1) It has a literal meaning: the speaker has the characteristics of adult human males.

2) It is has a social-asserting meaning: the speaker wants to be perceived as "the kind of person who makes those assertions"

For asserting-meanings like (2) to make sense, literal meanings (1) have to be available.

Consider, "I'm not a crook!"

For it to make sense to claim not to be a crook, it has to be literally possible not to be one (ie., to be innocent of crimes) independent of claiming to be one.

Many today want (2) to be the "primary" meaning of terms like man/woman, ie., we are told that we should always read them as social assertions. But we have to keep in mind that literal meanings (1) have to exist in order for (2) to even make any sense -- not least that in almost all historical cases (most of the law, medicine, etc.), the literal meaning is the intended meaning.

To say "I am a man!" cannot always mean, "I wish to be seen as having the characteristics of adult males". Just as saying "i am not a crook" cannot always mean, "i wish to be seen as innocent".

A person saying, "I am not a crook" is hoping to persuade the audience that they are innocent. They are "borrowing" from the literal meaning, hoping to persuade the audience that are innocent -- even if they are not.

People saying "I am a man" who are not literally men are likewise borrowing from "what would make this claim literally true" when the say it. If they arent, it wouldnt make any sense to say. The audience has to already know what men literally are before a person claims to be one.

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#46
I'm a sucker for these kinds of discussions. Evolution is way messier than you think it is, and evolutionary biologists get really heated about clades vs grades and so on and so forth. For fun, spend some time on the r/evolution and r/biology subreddits and you'll occasionally run into one of these heated debates. One of my favourites:

https://www.reddit.com/r/evolution/comments/o6yja1/serious_a...

If you ever meet an evolutionary biologist at a party, ask them if apes are monkeys. I think the closest thing for a Web developer like myself would be casually dropping into conversation the comment that "an Englishman invented the Internet".

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um... maybe I just need some coffee, or maybe I need more knowledge of philosophy. Would you be able to dumb that down a bit, or summarise?

What does the term "man" mean in the assertion, "I am a man!" Two interpretations: 1) It has a literal meaning: the speaker has the characteristics of adult human males. 2) It is has a social-asserting meaning: the speaker wants to be perceived as "the kind of person who makes those assertions" For asserting-meanings like (2) to make sense, literal meanings (1) have to be available. Consider, "I'm not a crook!" For i…

Thank you =)

I would say that "a man" is someone who presents, or deeply wishes to present, in the way the society has generally dictated people who have been assigned male at birth have to. For example, I have a friend who is a trans man. I would class them as "a man", since they wish to present, and exist in society, in the same way that people who have been assigned male at birth would. As such, they have short hair, refer to themselves by a name that has more masculine connotations, wear clothes generally aimed as masculine people, etc

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#48
post #38

Well, the name is not the thing named, so ultimately there is no such thing as anything. See also "ceci n'est pas une pipe".

True but the wrong point here. Lots of different and only loosely related types of plant have evolved to be tall with thick strong stems to get above other plants and capture the light. That is a way of growing, and we call it a tree, but the point here is not "trees do not exist" but "lots of totally different unrelated types of plant came up with being tree-shaped independently."

[deleted]

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the term "man" mean in the assertion, "I am a man!" Two interpretations: 1) It has a literal meaning: the speaker has the characteristics of adult human males. 2) It is has a social-asserting meaning: the speaker wants to be perceived as "the kind of person who makes those assertions" For asserting-meanings like (2) to make sense, literal meanings (1) have to be available. Consider, "I'm not a crook!" For i…

Thank you =) I would say that "a man" is someone who presents, or deeply wishes to present, in the way the society has generally dictated people who have been assigned male at birth have to. For example, I have a friend who is a trans man. I would class them as "a man", since they wish to present, and exist in society, in the same way that people who have been assigned male at birth would. As such, they have short ha…

The issue with this analysis is that it cannot explain the use of the term "man" in most contexts, nor literal claims to being a man.

In the first case, take a law about pensions -- the law-writer wasnt giving masculine-presenting people fewer years of their pension than feminine-presenting people; they were applying it to adult males. This applies very generally across many uses of man/woman -- the speaker just doesn't mean masculine-people and feminine-people, even if that highly correlates with the people they did mean. (Taking masculine/feminie to mean those presenting-characteristics).

In the second case, consider the claim, "I am really a man!", if that's only a claim to masculine-presentation then 'really' doesnt make sense, right? How could an audience ever be mistaken about this? What is at issue when people claim this, or dispute this? No person who asks, "are you really X?" is disputing how something is already perceived as-being-X.

Compare with, "are you really a crook?", "are you really a police officer?", "are you really a witch?" In each case there is a literal, descriptive, perception-independent meaning.

One reply to me here is to bite the bullet and say, "I am really a man(, I am just perceived to be a woman)!" is meaningless. That claims, "I am really a man/woman!" are meaningless. That makes sense out of the view that it's all just social perception, but its kinda implausible -- because we've written so much using these terms that there's clearly a literal meaning.

Eg., consider going to the pension office to collect a pension at the age for which women are allowed it but men are not. You speak to the pension officer and say, "I'm a woman, so I'm allowed my pension now". It seems the pension officer can meaningfully dispute this, "Are you really a woman?"

If you asked, "what do you mean?" the pension officer could coherently say, "pension age for women is 66, meaning if you are female and an adult over 66 then you are entitled to.."

It would seem disqualifying to reply, "I am a woman because I am perceived to be the same as the people who qualify"

Re: There's no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically) (2021)

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need to invoke tree to define leaves and wood. I don't think so? All non-tree plants have leaves (almost all maybe? edit: not cacti, so not all but most). Wood can be defined biologically ("cellulose fibers embedded in a lignin matrix" or something like that)

Non tree plants still require you assume what a tree is.

Ok, but all plants have leaves so you would only have to agree on what a plant is. You are trying to make a point but it makes no sense.

EDIT: you could also have totally separate definitions on what wood and leaves are without talking about trees or plants, don't you think?

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