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Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

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Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#41
So the two questions that I cannot see answered there.

How much does the security budget need to be?

When is it projected to drop below that?

The closest they come to addressing that seems to be a quote saying "We might have only two halvings left before this becomes a serious issue."

So 8 years-ish?

The original intention was to fund the network entirely off fees eventually. I don't think there was a stated expectation of block size, but it was intended to be made larger at some point.

Before coming up with specific solutions to the cost of securing the network I would think that evaluating what the acceptable range of cost/security should be would be the first starting point.

I feel they also neglect a realistic evaluation of the likelihood of a 51% attack. As soon as someone interferes with the network by 51% attack, everybody knows that it has happened. What countermeasures might be deployed?

While a miner confirming a block is like a rubber stamp from an auditor, there is nothing to stop other people from checking their work. If there are shenanigans they can be spotted, if a genuine 51% attack were to happen people would be highly motivated to counter it. That may involve bringing more compute to the network, or even changing the protocol. Ultimately the network is decided by the consensus of the users. Accepting signed blocks is the consensus. Because of the scale required to do a 51% attack on BitCoin it would almost certainly be detectable who was doing it. Under an attack people would be prepared to swiftly agree to some rule to exclude the attacker, the alternative is just two severe. You could think of it as a fork or you could think of the attackers version as the fork. You could have anything from, 'Today we stop accepting blocks from that pool over there', to 'From now until this mess is resolved, Kate confirms all blocks with her private key, We trust Kate, she's nice' The mitigation could be prosaic or fantastic, it doesn't matter, the thing that people agree upon will be the new chain. A fallback proof of work algorithm that requires more generalised hardware would work well. In case of attack, switch back to GPUs and a lower hash rate on a newer algorithm. ASICs become redundant and the network redistributes to whoever is supplying the GPUs. Then to do a 51% attack the attacker must not only have enough to 51% the ASIC hash rate, but have in reserve more GPUs than the rest of the world can bring to bear at short notice to 51% the fallback method.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess in reality you would just pressure the big miners since the top 4 control 80%. Nuts.

Where is that figure from? You're probably looking at mining pools, which don't actually own the hardware - individual miners do. A pool is just a service that coordinates many miners to work together and split the rewards. If a pool tried to behave maliciously, miners would simply switch to another pool and the pool would quickly lose its hashrate.

The problem isn't pools but manufacturers.

Competitive ASIC miners are manufactured by only a few companies. It's not inconceivable that they could use TC to lock them to specific pools or simply refuse to sell ASICs to the general public.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#43

This page's design is great and what I thought tufte-ian journalism would have led to. Using the presentation of quasi-mathematical facts in relatively grokkable formats to explain the state of the world in a way that can update itself several months or years later. Specifically some of the political discussions lately feel like they could use better dashboards. The call to action at the end of this article with thre…

Like this? https://www.project2025.observer/

it would be great if each tracked event was linked to a section of the project 2025 language. as it stands, to someone unfamiliar, it is just a list of initiatives the trump admin has completed.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#44

The whole point of restricting the block size was to ensure space in the blockchain was scarce to drive the price of fees up, better securing the network. Well, that and keeping the blockchain total size small enough to be processed on an regular user's PC for decentralization sake. While a loss of some decentralization is non-ideal, increasing the block size dynamically, similarly to how difficulty is handled, would…

Bitcoin: lets make it so a medium grade computer and internet connection by 2008’s midrange standards works. Forever. Solana: let’s make it so that enthusiast grade computers and internet connectivity by 2024’s high range standard works. Sometimes. But keep pushing.

Is solana even decentralized? I thought it was like ripple. I haven't been paying too much attention though.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#45
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monero does dynamic block size. It works fine. There is a penalty for large swings in size and that controls the fee which allows the fee to be appropriate during swells and luls in volume.

Something I would like to see from the cryptocurrency space is some way for the block size to fluctuate with daily and weekly transaction volume. For example, you would expect that the transaction volume would be greater when it is daytime on the east coast, so the blocksize should adapt to those temporal changes as well. If there is a certain latentcy/bandwidth/storage/decentralization tradeoff with block sizes, the…

Ethereum changes the cost to use the network based on recent block sizes, and allows the block size to go up during high demand. So it's cheaper to use the network when blocks are less full, and more expensive if blocks are mostly full. I'm behind on the current parameters, but they're essentially doing what you ask for:

https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-1559

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#46
post #38
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would someone want a random block chain company to own 5% of the possibility of destroying their holdings? What if the company gets co-opted by some nation state actor? Bitcoin really seems like a terrible place to keep wealth.

If you own 5% of the hash rate you have ~0% ability to attack the network.

Yes, but if you're a nation state with dictatorial control over a nation's resources, +5% might be all you need.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#47
post #18

This big block propaganda piece fails to address the most obvious issue with their proposal: that increasing block sizes will just increase fees linearly. No one will pay more in fees per transaction because there will be a lot of space left in blocks, so people will keep paying $0.20 per transaction, which today gets us $400, so now we'll get $800? That if increasing the block size doesn't reduce the base $0.20 to s…

Yes, but there will be far greater total demand for transactions because the costs will no longer be prohibitive to certain types of commerce (which has network effects).

Drivechain is an idiotic proposal to just give total control of the network to miners. Atomic swaps already enable the same thing, except without a wealth transfer to miners.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#48

Lol total garbage people have been whining about the blocks regularly being EMPTY now, a huge % of transactions just occur off chain on exchanges/lightning/etc. There are no 100 dollar fees you can basically do everything for basically free. https://mempool.space/ look, you can see how many blocks aren't filled lol. This piece is literally just garbage. Big blockers are scam artists.

The 100$ fee per transaction is what it would cost to sustain current miner revenue without mining reward (ie. mining revenue derived somewhat invisibly from money supply increase).

The piece is not garbage, but a thoughtful introduction to a problem that's approaching inexorably.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#49
post #41

So the two questions that I cannot see answered there. How much does the security budget need to be? When is it projected to drop below that? The closest they come to addressing that seems to be a quote saying "We might have only two halvings left before this becomes a serious issue." So 8 years-ish? The original intention was to fund the network entirely off fees eventually. I don't think there was a stated expectat…

>How much does the security budget need to be?

I don't know but I expect it to be proportional to market cap, not getting cut in half forever.

>The original intention was to fund the network entirely off fees eventually.

I think this was a half-baked idea from satoshi. My theory is that the bitcoin distribution was chosen to avoid having to decide on any "arbitrary" emission schedule. Bitcoin basically acts an experiment to determine what level of coinbase reward is safe, through bisection.

>if a genuine 51% attack were to happen people would be highly motivated to counter it. That may involve bringing more compute to the network, or even changing the protocol.

Who? Just bitcoin users in general? There is no group that stands to gain, it's sort of a tragedy of the commons situation.

Bitcoin's security is tied to ASIC hardware. You can't just spin up a couple desktops at home to protect the network anymore.

>A fallback proof of work algorithm that requires more generalised hardware would work well.

I think monero already does this. Look up "RandomX" it is amazing to read about. But the problem is that these CPU-mined coins are even easier to attack because you can easily rent hardware or use a botnet to do a 51% attack. Whereas with bitcoin you need to buy a bunch of ASICs which would be devalued by such an attack.

>Ultimately the network is decided by the consensus of the users. Accepting signed blocks is the consensus.

I was going to write a long response to this, but in a nutshell classical consensus and PoS sucks.

Re: Bitcoin's Security Budget Issue: Problems, Solutions and Myths Debunked

#50
post #41

So the two questions that I cannot see answered there. How much does the security budget need to be? When is it projected to drop below that? The closest they come to addressing that seems to be a quote saying "We might have only two halvings left before this becomes a serious issue." So 8 years-ish? The original intention was to fund the network entirely off fees eventually. I don't think there was a stated expectat…

> How much does the security budget need to be?

There's the famous paper "The Economic Limits of Bitcoin and the Blockchain" [0, 1] answering this question. Bottom line: huge.

> Nakamoto’s novel form of trust faces serious economic limits. It is unusually expensive in absolute terms relative to the stakes involved, and its expense scales linearly with the stakes involved. [...] if permissionless consensus in its pure form were to become a more important part of the global economic and financial system than it has been to date, then the costs of securing the trust would become preposterous — more than all of global GDP in some scenarios.

David Rosenthal has good introductory posts on this [2] in his excellent blog.

[0] Original 2018 version: https://www.nber.org/papers/w24717

[1] Updated 2024 version [pdf]: https://socialsciences.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/2024...

[2] https://blog.dshr.org/2025/05/who-is-mining-bitcoin.html

https://blog.dshr.org/2018/06/cryptocurrencies-have-limits.h...

https://blog.dshr.org/2019/02/the-economics-of-bitcoin-trans...

https://blog.dshr.org/2024/05/fee-only-bitcoin.html

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