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My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#41

"they’re smarter than me" feels like false humility and an attempt to make the medicine go down better. 1. Thomas is obviously very smart. 2. To be what we think of as "smart" is to be in touch with reality, which includes testing AI systems for yourself and recognizing their incredible power.

It's not false. He's talking about people smarter than him (at writing and shipping infrastructure code).

Thomas is the smartest at other things.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#42
post #24

What this boils down to is an argument for slop. Yeah, who cares about the quality, the mediocrity, the craft... get the slop, push it in, call it done. It mostly works in the golden path, it's about 6 or 7 orders of magnitude slower than hand-written software but that's ok, just buy more AWS resources, bill the client, whatever. I can maybe even see that point in some niches, like outsourcing or contracting where yo…

It's not much different without the AI. Managers don't care about efficient code, they care about code that meets the business goals - whether that's good or bad is debatable. Agencies duct-taping together throwaway code isn't new. The classic "just buy more AWS resources" & such have been around for quite a while.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#43

Can someone explain to me what this means? > People coding with LLMs today use agents. Agents get to poke around your codebase on their own. They author files directly. They run tools. They compile code, run tests, and iterate on the results. ... Is this what people are really doing? Who is just turning AI loose to modify things as it sees fit? If I'm not directing the work, how does it even know what to do? I've bee…

I run Cursor in a mode that starts up shell processes, runs linters, tests etc on its own, updates multiple files, runs the linter and tests again, fixes failures, and so on. It auto stops at 20 iterations through the feedback loop.

Depending on the task it works really well.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#44
My take is: It is OK to don't buy into the hype. There's a lot of hype, no denying that.

But if you're actively avoiding everything related to it, you might find yourself in a position where you're suddenly being left in the dust. Maybe not now, not next month, not next year, but who some time in the future. The models really are improving fast!

I've talked with devs that (claim they) haven't touched a model since ChatGPT was released - because it didn't live up to their expectations, and they just concluded it was a big nothingburger.

Even though I don't follow the development religiously anymore, I do try to get acquainted with new releases every 3 months or so.

I hate the term "vibe coding", but I personally know non-tech people that have vibe coded products / apps, shipped them, and make more money in sales than what most "legit" coders are making. These would be the same "idea people" that previously were looking for a coder to do all the heavy lifting. Something is changing, that's for sure.

So, yeah, don't sleepwalk through it.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#45

Can someone explain to me what this means? > People coding with LLMs today use agents. Agents get to poke around your codebase on their own. They author files directly. They run tools. They compile code, run tests, and iterate on the results. ... Is this what people are really doing? Who is just turning AI loose to modify things as it sees fit? If I'm not directing the work, how does it even know what to do? I've bee…

I cut several paragraphs from this explaining how agents work, which I wrote anticipating this exact comment. I'm very happy to have brought you to this moment of understanding --- it's a big one. The answer is "yes, that's exactly what people are doing": "turning LLMs loose" (really, giving them some fixed number of tool calls, some of which might require human approval) to do stuff on real systems. This is exactly what Cursor is about.

I think it's really hard to undersell how important agents are.

We have an intuition for LLMs as a function blob -> blob (really, token -> token, but whatever), and the limitations of such a function, ping-ponging around in its own state space, like a billion monkeys writing plays.

But you can also get go blob -> json, and json -> tool-call -> blob. The json->tool interaction isn't stochastic; it's simple systems code (the LLM could indeed screw up the JSON, since that process is stochastic --- but it doesn't matter, because the agent isn't stochastic and won't accept it, and the LLM will just do it over). The json->tool-call->blob process is entirely fixed system code --- and simple code, at that.

Doing this grounds the code generation process. It has a directed stochastic structure, and a closed loop.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#46
I have one very specific retort to the 'you are still responsible' point. High school kids write lots of notes. The notes frequently never get read, but the performance is worse without them: the act of writing them embeds them into your head. I allegedly know how to use a debugger, but I haven't in years: but for a number I could count on my fingers, nearly every bug report I have gotten I know exactly down to the line of code where it comes from, because I wrote it or something next to it (or can immediately ask someone who probably did). You don't get that with AI. The codebase is always new. Everything must be investigated carefully. When stuff slips through code review, even if it is a mistake you might have made, you would remember that you made it. When humans do not do the work, humans do not accrue the experience. (This may still be a good tradeoff, I haven't run any numbers. But it's not such an obvious tradeoff as TFA implies.)

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#47

Damn. Well I'll spend a few bucks trying it out and I'll ask my employer if they're okay with me using agents on company time, but But I'm not thrilled about centralized, paid tools. I came into software during a huge FOSS boom. Like a huge do it yourself, host it yourself, Publish Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere, all the power to all the people, borderline anarchist communist boom. I don't want it to be like other ind…

Yeah, I'm ready to jump in, but I need an agent running on my hardware at home without internet access.

How far away are we from that? How many RYX 50s do I need?

This is a serious question btw.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#48
>pull in arbitrary code from the tree, or from other trees online, into their context windows, run standard Unix tools to navigate the tree and extract information, interact with Git, run existing tooling, like linters, formatters, and model checkers, and make essentially arbitrary tool calls (that you set up) through MCP.

....for the vast majority of my career, anyone who suggested doing this - much less letting code that no one in the world (much less the company) truly understands the logic flow of do this - would be fired.

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