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The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

lcamtuf.substack.com

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Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#41

The author seems confused. Decibels aren’t units. They’re a way to express a ratio between a reference value and some other value. They’re used where they are useful.

They are units too. When you have regulations relating to sound they will say how many dB the limit is.

I've never seen dB being used like that in anything remotely official.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#42
Decibels aren't actually that ridiculous if you just accept them as plain logarithmic ratios, between your signal and the noise floor or some other signal. (Or between anything else, really.)

3dB is roughly double, 10dB is 10x, but only sounds about twice as loud because our ears are weird.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#43

This seems exceedingly ignorant of the work decibels do in telecommunications, RF and fibre engineering. The voltage vs power relationship is something that exists and is a core memory of beginner blunders in the field, but it boils down to a simple 10 vs 20 division operation. Besides that, the decibel simplifies a lot of multiplying very small and very big numbers to summing of two-digit numbers that you can do in…

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Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#44

This seems exceedingly ignorant of the work decibels do in telecommunications, RF and fibre engineering. The voltage vs power relationship is something that exists and is a core memory of beginner blunders in the field, but it boils down to a simple 10 vs 20 division operation. Besides that, the decibel simplifies a lot of multiplying very small and very big numbers to summing of two-digit numbers that you can do in…

As someone who teaches this concept to.. art students I have to say that this complaint sounds a lot like the typical misconceptions and confusions a beginner would have.

Yes, dB is a weird and unintuitive concept and it takes a moment to understand it, but it is also extremely useful once you get it. The fact that people don't write out the reference values does not help either, people will bounce out that audio mix at -20dB when in fact they mean -20dBFS which is referenced to the digital maximum (Full Scale) value. Above 0dBFS you clip the waveform.

People leaving out the reference part is the mean reason for the confusion IMO.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#45

The author seems confused. Decibels aren’t units. They’re a way to express a ratio between a reference value and some other value. They’re used where they are useful.

They are units too. When you have regulations relating to sound they will say how many dB the limit is.

No. dB is not a unit. If it's quoted as a unit, then the person using it doesn't know what they are doing. dBx where x is some reference value is a unit and that means dB relative to the reference unit. So dBm/dBv etc are units. dB is not.

Mathematically, dB is the ratio between two unit values and for example if you divide metres by metres you cancel the units.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are units too. When you have regulations relating to sound they will say how many dB the limit is.

I've never seen dB being used like that in anything remotely official.

https://www.osha.gov/noise

Maybe the reference is implied though?

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen dB being used like that in anything remotely official.

https://www.osha.gov/noise Maybe the reference is implied though?

That's hilarious, though they do seem to get it right on the other, more in-depth pages.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#48
post #3

While the author is technically right, I must argue that in the area of sound work, decibels make sense. Zero is base level, -3db is half loudness, +3dB is double. There may be a better way to describe loudness, but decibel is good enough.

So on my amplifier, 0db is the loudest and -50db, where I usually listen is what? -47db is definitely not twice as loud as -50db, of course.

-47db is double the power. Perceived double loudness would be ~ -40db

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#49
> This means that if you’re talking about watts, +1 bel is an increase of 10×; but if you’re talking about volts, it’s an increase of √10×. This is nuts: it’s akin to saying that the milli- prefix should have different meanings depending on whether we’re talking about meters or liters.

Well no, because even if you are focusing on a signal measured in volts, the bel continues to be related to power and not voltage. As soon as you mention bels or decibels, you're talking about the power aspect of the signal.

If volume were measured in meters, which were understood to be the length of one edge of a cube whose volume is being given, then one millimeter (1/1000th of distance) would have to be interpreted as one billionth (1/1,000,000,000) of the volume.

When you use voltage to convey the amplitude of a signal, it's like giving an area in meters, where it is understood that 100x more meters is 10,000x the area.

There could exist a logarithmic scale in which +3 units represents a doubling of voltage. We just wouldn't be able to call those units decibels.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So on my amplifier, 0db is the loudest and -50db, where I usually listen is what? -47db is definitely not twice as loud as -50db, of course.

Human hearing perception response is logarithmic. This is part of the reason we use the unit. Our senses naturally work in that domain.

> Human hearing perception response is logarithmic.

It is, but -50db to -47db (+3db) is not double perceived loudness. It's double power. About +6 or even +10db would be double perceived loudness.

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