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To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

theatlantic.com

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Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#41

Post by raverbashing »

oofabz wrote: post #13

One area where we lag behind the rest of the world is our voting system. In 1992 Clinton was elected with 43% of the vote because Perot split the Republicans. In 2000 Bush was elected with 48% because Nader split the Democrats. This kind of voting system has been mathematically proven to create a two-party system (Duverger's Law). In many other countries they use runoff voting, so if no one gets 50%, they hold anothe…

But in the end, only Hollande and Sarkozy had a chance to win

The runoff system sometimes provides different results in the second round, true. (And you know that it only applies if none of the candidates has more than 50% of valid votes, right?)

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#42

Post by mseebach »

oofabz wrote: post #13

One area where we lag behind the rest of the world is our voting system. In 1992 Clinton was elected with 43% of the vote because Perot split the Republicans. In 2000 Bush was elected with 48% because Nader split the Democrats. This kind of voting system has been mathematically proven to create a two-party system (Duverger's Law). In many other countries they use runoff voting, so if no one gets 50%, they hold anothe…

It's easy to over-emphasize the importance of the voting system. I note how you contrast the badness of winning with 43% and 48% of the vote with a guy who won with 29% of the vote. Yes, you get the run-off, but most of the time, that just degenerates into a free-for-all in the first round and the "real election" between the two "real" parties in the second. You even get the issue of vote-splitting: In 2002, Front National narrowly beat the socialists, so the run-off was between conservative Chirac and far-right Le Pen. Chirac got 20% in the first round and 82% in the second - on a 32%/68% favorable rating.

Voting isn't really about lofty ideals and finding the best person for the job. The presidents of France aren't significantly or consistently better or worse than the presidents of the US. The fact is that across all the voting systems in the free democratic world, the people elected are rarely brilliant and visionary leaders - they are just good enough and there is a solid mechanism for firing them if they screw up badly enough.

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#43

Post by mbesto »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #28
greggman wrote: post #6

I agree with this. My eyes opened I ways I never expected by living abroad. I thought America was safe and it is compared to Somalia but not compared to may other contries. I didn't notice this because I've been trained to ignore it. I've been trained not to walk down dark alleys. I've been trained not to leave anything visible in a car when I park it or else it will get broken into. When it had been broken into Ive…

I have never lived abroad, but everything you've said is obvious to me, because I interact with and learn about the World outside my country and have a natural tendency to question anything that politicians or people in power have to say. People don't need to live abroad to come to these conclusions. I suspect that you're probably mistaken that living abroad did this to you, and that it would have happened anyway. It…

> *People don't need to live abroad to come to these conclusions.

Yes, yes they do. Actually you're right, it's not a panacea, and to most intelligent people they gain this wisdom with age and maturity. However, we have a serious media problem in the US that doesn't always tell the truth. So, it's extremely difficult to learn about the world outside the American bubble.

Also, I did notice you are from the UK. It's much more culturally accepted to learn about the World outside of the UK. America, not so much.

...and how did I come to this conclusion? Because I'm American and live in your country! This isn't some sweeping generalization I heard on the news, I concluded it after having lived here. You'd be shocked how little Americans know and understand about the World.

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#44

Post by dmpk2k »

ubernostrum wrote: post #23
oofabz wrote: post #13

One area where we lag behind the rest of the world is our voting system. In 1992 Clinton was elected with 43% of the vote because Perot split the Republicans. In 2000 Bush was elected with 48% because Nader split the Democrats. This kind of voting system has been mathematically proven to create a two-party system (Duverger's Law). In many other countries they use runoff voting, so if no one gets 50%, they hold anothe…

One thing I've never seen answered: Has anyone actually stopped to figure out how multi-party systems really scale? India is the largest in the world, but also A) has Euro-style population density and B) is maybe not such a great example of a functioning representative government. France and Germany are better examples of governments that mostly work, but are dealing with a fraction of the US population and order-of-…

Perhaps we should eliminate parties altogether. The existence of party whips and cabinets in many countries tells us a lot about their "representative" democracies.

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#45

Post by smsm42 »

stinos wrote: post #26

Just today I was reading an interview with a Belgian journalist/writer, Bjorn Soenens, who travelled through America and wrote a boook about it's current state, on all levels. His conclusions were pretty much the same as in this article, although I'd also say 'darker'. Some claims he made, which I cannot verify but would love to hear comments about [I have the impression he's rather pessimistic and mainly lifts out t…

If you think OWS came close to revolution you should switch the brand that you're smoking, it's not good for you :)

OWS was completely insignificant movement without goals, purpose, ideology, leadership, ability or understanding of anything that happens in the society. It was overhyped, mostly by sensation-seeking reporters that want clicks/eyeballs to run ads and by leftist press outlets because they wanted their own Tea Party (which of course no revolution either, but at least had some successes to boast).

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#46

Post by dmpk2k »

fingerprinter wrote: post #35

I'm an American living in AU, going to move to Canada. Couple of thoughts. 1. Family was discussing where to live. US didn't really come up as an option because of healthcare and education. Things are generally cheaper in the US, but standard of living for our kids was considered more important. Canada in particular is very close, nearly as cheap and has better education and healthcare. Win-Win. 2. People in the US g…

I'm curious why you're moving from Australia to Canada? Canada has a lot going for it, and it's definitely cheaper, but in most regards I think Australia has its act together better.

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#47

Post by jballanc »

mbesto wrote: post #43
mike-cardwell wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never lived abroad, but everything you've said is obvious to me, because I interact with and learn about the World outside my country and have a natural tendency to question anything that politicians or people in power have to say. People don't need to live abroad to come to these conclusions. I suspect that you're probably mistaken that living abroad did this to you, and that it would have happened anyway. It…

> *People don't need to live abroad to come to these conclusions. Yes, yes they do. Actually you're right, it's not a panacea, and to most intelligent people they gain this wisdom with age and maturity. However, we have a serious media problem in the US that doesn't always tell the truth. So, it's extremely difficult to learn about the world outside the American bubble. Also, I did notice you are from the UK. It's mu…

One thing that occurred to me only after leaving the US: only in America can you consider yourself "educated" or "well cultured" and yet have never been to a place where the people did not speak your language!

Isolationism has always been the biggest threat to America's success. I wonder if it's only coincidence that the height of America's power came after it sent a large chunk of its young population overseas?

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#48

Post by mbesto »

smsm42 wrote: post #36

"Imagine if a politician were to say, "France has a better health care system than we do." I can almost guarantee that politician would suffer electoral defeat " Which America this guy is from? In the United States of America in which I am residing, lots of politicians talk all day long about pretty much every developed country in the world having better medical system than US (even though those systems are radically…

> Which America this guy is from?

Really? Can you give a little more evidence to support your claim?

I'd love to see a clip of Romney or Obama saying "We're looking to copy the french healthcare system". They would get murdered for being "Un-American".

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#49

Post by smsm42 »

jballanc wrote: post #34
hnhg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't get a free rug in a Turkish rug store but Apple do go out of their way to appear inviting and helpful way beyond any of their competition.

This. I've found that business in America have a tendency to try and monetize the entirety of every business transaction. For example, I used to work at Circuit City, and if you came in to buy a TV you'd be amazed how quickly the salesperson would shift the conversation onto cables, power supplies, protection plans, etc. When the end of the day rolled around, and praise was divvied out by the store managers, no one e…

Note that you are comparing a big chain store (Circuit City) with small business (a Turk). Most businesses in the US are small businesses, which behave differently than chain stores. And if you think that that the Turk wouldn't get back the price of his tea hundredfold when you buy that rug, then you're very naive :) It's just different styles of conducting business - in some cultures, the negotiations are supposed to be personal and simulate closeness and friendship (even if parties are hoping to cheat each other as much as possible), in some it is supposed to be businesslike and impersonal.

As for the Apple store, I had been a number of times in Apple store in San Jose, that's abut 15 minutes drive from main Apple campus. Almost each time I had the worst experience. I had to wait for a long time, workers kept redirecting me from one to another, and since the policy is that there are no lines in Apple stores, I had no idea when I am going to be served - I just had to aimlessly wander around the store and wait for the moment where some "genius" is ready to grace me with his attention. I had to explain what I need to multiple people, which for some reason didn't talk to each other, and I observed multiple store workers not busy with anything but somehow still unavailable to help me. I am totally unconvinced about that being the paragon of customer service.

Re: To Make America Great Again, We Need to Leave the Country

#50

Post by punee »

firefoxman1 wrote: post #15
uvdiv wrote: post #9

Even when it comes to the "pursuit of happiness," enshrined in our Declaration of Independence as one of the noble goals of government, our citizens are only the 15th most satisfied with their lives. The text asserts the right of men [mankind] to pursue happiness, not the goal of government to provide it!

That is such an excellent point. I don't know if this is an issue found in other countries as much as here, but I find (especially during election times) people take such pride in what they achieve, but blame the government for what they don't. It doesn't help when politicians are publicly using this attitude as a major part of their strategy.

It is an issue that is found in other countries proportionately to the prevalence of socialism. The French, for instance, will not only blame everything on the government (or people who have had success), but expect everything from it (find me a job, keep me healthy, save my company from bankruptcy, provide me with nice state-sponsored TV fiction championing the values of "diversity", etc.). You don't want America to go down that road.
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