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Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

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Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#41

Post by wat10000 »

wormlord wrote: post #24
wat10000 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the conservative "intelligentsia" point at people and say "it's the graphs which are wrong" to the point of rejecting basic medicine and sabotaging the economy because people feel aggrieved. I'm not happy with either one but at least the liberal one is connected to reality in some fashion.

Sure yeah conservative leaders are evil most of us get that. My point is that if you want to WIN if you want to DEFEAT fascists you have to change tactics. You can't just ignore people's complaints and tell them they're wrong, they will go to the other side. Politics is transactional-- liberals think of quid pro quo as a dirty word, but why have democracy if you're not gonna get something out of it?

I totally agree, but I'm not seeing any alternative approach being taken besides declaring that the numbers are incorrect and the feelings are the real facts.

Much of our current political woes can be traced to widespread rejection of various facts. Figuring out how to remedy that (which has to include understanding that particular facts don't always give you the full picture, and people's feelings matter whether correct or not) is critical, but this sort of "lol stop talking about numbers you stupid scientists" response is not helpful.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#42

Post by hparadiz »

watwut wrote: post #28
hparadiz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently was looking at a 4 speaker switch on monoprice. It was $20 two months ago. Now it's $40. It occurred to me that the parts in this speaker switch amounted to be $2 of raw parts. The simplest of plastic pieces with basic copper wires and metal screws. Yet they were shipping it here and forcing American consumers to pay $20 in taxes instead of possibly claiming an almost $36 profit margin by paying $2 of taxe…

> Yet they were shipping it here and forcing American consumers to pay $20 in taxes instead of possibly claiming an almost $36 profit margin by paying $2 of taxes on raw parts and assembling it here You assume that salary of people involved in putting the speaker together (or more likely robotic automatization) would amount to 2$ per speaker?

No no. $2 for the tax on raw parts and then there's $36 of profit per unit to work with. Potentially. Just a thought experiment.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#43

Post by wormlord »

wat10000 wrote: post #41
wormlord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure yeah conservative leaders are evil most of us get that. My point is that if you want to WIN if you want to DEFEAT fascists you have to change tactics. You can't just ignore people's complaints and tell them they're wrong, they will go to the other side. Politics is transactional-- liberals think of quid pro quo as a dirty word, but why have democracy if you're not gonna get something out of it?

I totally agree, but I'm not seeing any alternative approach being taken besides declaring that the numbers are incorrect and the feelings are the real facts. Much of our current political woes can be traced to widespread rejection of various facts. Figuring out how to remedy that (which has to include understanding that particular facts don't always give you the full picture, and people's feelings matter whether cor…

Bernie is a good example of the alternative approach. I personally don't think he's radical enough, but he promises people things and makes people feel listened to. If you can establish a two-way street where people feel seen and heard, they will start to believe you again when you show them numbers. Of course you can see the response of the Democratic party to progressives like Bernie and AOC. The democratic party isn't going to win until they abandon the neoliberal technocrat schtick, literally nobody likes it. (also who knows if we will even have elections anymore so whatever)

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#44

Post by bryanlarsen »

msandford wrote: post #8

I find this kind of article hilarious. "Numbers go up! You're not allowed to feel poor or think that there's a problem! Our number is bigger so you must be rich!" I saw this 10-20 years ago when economists were telling people that inflation is low despite their feelings about inflation. "Our math is correct and you ignorant folks should be grateful for how this economy is managed." Just because you can produce equati…

In the 70's a middle class family had 1 car, a 1200 square foot house, ate out once a month, had less than a dozen sets of clothes per person (most of which were work clothes).

They felt well off, because they were doing fabulously well compared to the 30's which were still lived memory.

And because they felt secure. They did not feel in any danger of losing the essentials of housing, food, clothing and health care.

Now we have a lot more, but we've lost that feeling of security vis a vis housing & health care.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#45

Post by surgical_fire »

hparadiz wrote: post #19
micromacrofoot wrote: post #7

and re-industrialization won't save it we can't possibly compete with (much) cheaper overseas labor, tariffs will do nothing but exclude the US from this cheap labor while other countries continue to benefit from it eventually more of it will be automated anyway, and areas that saw booms from cheap labor will face similar class crises there's also this idea that maybe our standard of living needs to regress some ("2…

I recently was looking at a 4 speaker switch on monoprice. It was $20 two months ago. Now it's $40. It occurred to me that the parts in this speaker switch amounted to be $2 of raw parts. The simplest of plastic pieces with basic copper wires and metal screws. Yet they were shipping it here and forcing American consumers to pay $20 in taxes instead of possibly claiming an almost $36 profit margin by paying $2 of taxe…

1) Labor will be a lot more expensive if assembly is done in the US, and since parts are cheap, labor will likely be the biggest expense.

2) Working at assemblying cheap shit is bottom of the barrel work that people only do when they are desperate. It's either work or starve. It's why those jobs are outsourced to where labor is extremely cheap.

I am not from the US, but I read these posts with some mild amusement, because there is poetry that I am unable to capture.

Like, the goal of most countries is escaping the middle income trap and becoming advanced economies, and now people in the richest, most advanced economy there is want a regression to have assembly sweatshops instead of an advanced economy based on services and finance.

The funny part is that people that advocate for that wouldn't want in a million years to work in an assembly sweatshop. They count that someone else will do the job. Maybe immigrants, before they are deported to some concentration camp in Central America.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#46

Post by dullcrisp »

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #33
robotcapital wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article's point isn't that globalization (or policy) didn't play a role, it's that the premise of middle class downfall is false to begin with. See the section under the header "The American middle class was never hollowed out".

The middle class of the 1980s/1990s are the poor of today... the middle class of today are different people (and probably would have been upper class professionals in the past)

Well we’re all different people, which is why they’re looking at median incomes. Unless the problem is that these are different people?

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#48

Post by dullcrisp »

surgical_fire wrote: post #45
hparadiz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently was looking at a 4 speaker switch on monoprice. It was $20 two months ago. Now it's $40. It occurred to me that the parts in this speaker switch amounted to be $2 of raw parts. The simplest of plastic pieces with basic copper wires and metal screws. Yet they were shipping it here and forcing American consumers to pay $20 in taxes instead of possibly claiming an almost $36 profit margin by paying $2 of taxe…

1) Labor will be a lot more expensive if assembly is done in the US, and since parts are cheap, labor will likely be the biggest expense. 2) Working at assemblying cheap shit is bottom of the barrel work that people only do when they are desperate. It's either work or starve. It's why those jobs are outsourced to where labor is extremely cheap. I am not from the US, but I read these posts with some mild amusement, be…

On the other hand we always rail against exploitative overseas labor practices here. Maybe this is actually a very progressive policy. We can all spend one day a week assembling electronics like Marx would have wanted.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#49

Post by micromacrofoot »

dullcrisp wrote: post #48
surgical_fire wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Labor will be a lot more expensive if assembly is done in the US, and since parts are cheap, labor will likely be the biggest expense. 2) Working at assemblying cheap shit is bottom of the barrel work that people only do when they are desperate. It's either work or starve. It's why those jobs are outsourced to where labor is extremely cheap. I am not from the US, but I read these posts with some mild amusement, be…

On the other hand we always rail against exploitative overseas labor practices here. Maybe this is actually a very progressive policy. We can all spend one day a week assembling electronics like Marx would have wanted.

I'll assemble electronics 5 days a week if I own part of the company. That is what Marx wanted. Apple generates $10 million+ per employee right now.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#50

Post by spacemadness »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #44
msandford wrote: post #8

I find this kind of article hilarious. "Numbers go up! You're not allowed to feel poor or think that there's a problem! Our number is bigger so you must be rich!" I saw this 10-20 years ago when economists were telling people that inflation is low despite their feelings about inflation. "Our math is correct and you ignorant folks should be grateful for how this economy is managed." Just because you can produce equati…

In the 70's a middle class family had 1 car, a 1200 square foot house, ate out once a month, had less than a dozen sets of clothes per person (most of which were work clothes). They felt well off, because they were doing fabulously well compared to the 30's which were still lived memory. And because they felt secure. They did not feel in any danger of losing the essentials of housing, food, clothing and health care.…

It’s always housing. We’re basically at economic war with each other. Home owners vs. non-home owners. Home owners get anxious when their house value doesn’t continue to rise past inflation. So they vote against policies that would help non home owners get into the market without drowning out of self interest.
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