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AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

bbc.com

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Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#41

Post by MildlySerious »

_mlbt wrote: post #20
LaurensBER wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of their ex-members have been literal Nazis. Something that doesn't go over very well in Germany. The party banned these people but their standpoints are still very controversial, the main issue is that in some aspects they do no support the juridical system. So yeah, regular right wing compared to American standards but I think we can all agree that respecting the trias politica is a good thing in any country.

I’ll be honest, as an American looking in from the outside, this looks like the leftist parties in Germany trying to silence the opposition. If the party is expelling the true extremists like the Neo-Nazi former party members that you mentioned, I don’t see why they should be held responsible for them. This would be like declaring the entire American Republican Party extreme-far right because of a few whack jobs like…

They are not expelling extremists based on extremism. They are expelling extremists based on public fallout. The remaining ones are effectively their spokespeople.

Germany has a wide range of political parties that cover the entire political spectrum. A party of extremists is not needed for a strong opposition. What German politics needs is momentum, and the will to actually get stuff done, even if it'll be unpopular. The fact that the AfD managed to use and abuse that mindset to gain popularity does not make them the right ones to make a positive impact. In fact, even putting their extremism aside, their contrarian and anti-progressive "everything new is woke" mentality is the exact opposite of what the country needs, for all I care.

I've answered your last question in a sibling comment to yours.[1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43869432

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#42

Post by sincerecook »

T0Bi wrote: post #27
_mlbt wrote: post #12

I’m not a German so take this with a massive amount of salt, but what makes them extreme-right? Is it the anti-immigrant stance or is there more that I’m missing? They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.

The party's prevailing ethnic and descent-based understanding of the people is not compatible with the free democratic basic order. It aims to exclude certain population groups from equal participation in society, to subject them to unequal treatment that does not conform to the constitution and thus to assign them a legally devalued status. Specifically, the AfD does not consider German citizens with a history of mi…

The interesting question is why having a different definition of the German people than "anyone who happened to come here and has lived here for a while" should be considered an extreme position. Throwing out all history and ancestry as a core component of the identity of a group of people seems rather like the extreme view.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#43

Post by throw123xz »

_mlbt wrote: post #12

I’m not a German so take this with a massive amount of salt, but what makes them extreme-right? Is it the anti-immigrant stance or is there more that I’m missing? They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.

> They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.

Sorry for the throwaway, but has Europe moved too much to the left that AfD seems like a far-right party or has America moved too much to the right that something like AfD and Trump seem like "regular right"?

The fact you have neo-nazis supporting this "regular right" should tell you that at least some of the talking points fit their views.

Something else that we should keep in mind is that there are politicians in Europe that have views similar to Bush, Nixon, etc, and I don't see anyone calling them "far-right". Conservative? Yes. Not far-right.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#44

Post by thrance »

_mlbt wrote: post #34
thrance wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should tell you more about how far right America has gotten. What's your definition of extreme-right and why don't they fit it? Both the GOP and the AFD are acting extra-constitutionally. Trump's administration has shown to Europeans that needed a reminder how dangerous these politics can be.

I would argue that the American right wing has actually shifted a bit leftward in the past few decades. Gay marriage is now accepted by most Republicans for example. Trump is in many ways a 90s Democrat. His stance on illegal immigration, America first foreign policy, and protectionist tariffs are actually not that extreme historically for our country. The mass deportations are a reaction to the unprecedented scale o…

No.

https://theconversation.com/same-sex-marriage-is-under-attac...

Trump's administration's opposes feminism, unions, socialized healthcare, welfare programs, university funding, legal abortions, climate change recognition, student debt forgiveness, gay marriage, trans identify...

They also: deport citizens without due process, enforce the "unitary executive theory", defund government institutions, remove health regulations, reduce taxes...

None of these things are left-wing, by any conceivable definition of "left-wing". What the fuck are you even saying about how the rest of the world has been shifting "extreme-far left"? It clearly hasn't.

Tell me again how the weak neoliberal party has gotten far-left? Do you think gay marriage is communism or something? Because I don't see the democrats advocating for socialized ownership of the means of production or other crazy shit. Mostly they hold mild and boring technocratic views on everything, and are sometimes slightly progressive when it's convenient.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#45

Post by josefritzishere »

flohofwoe wrote: post #23
qoez wrote: post #15

I wish there was tighter rules around what stays on the front page of HN. I come here for tech news or interesting nerdy blog posts not this stuff.

Not much worse than every other post being about AI bullshit tbh.

I have the same complaint. If AI can automate a whoopie cushion it gets a post.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#46

Post by thrance »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26
thrance wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should tell you more about how far right America has gotten. What's your definition of extreme-right and why don't they fit it? Both the GOP and the AFD are acting extra-constitutionally. Trump's administration has shown to Europeans that needed a reminder how dangerous these politics can be.

Is the AfD acting extra-constitutionally? Or are they just proposing to do so? They aren't actually in power, are they? If not, how are they "acting" at all? (Not German, so I don't know. Honest questions from an incomplete understanding.)

It's the second option. Should a party that promises to act extra-legally once they get into power be allowed to campaign? I think not, but it is not an easy question to answer.

Europeans have been reminded of the dangers of right-wing populism with what's currently happening in America.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#47

Post by orwin »

_mlbt wrote: post #20
LaurensBER wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of their ex-members have been literal Nazis. Something that doesn't go over very well in Germany. The party banned these people but their standpoints are still very controversial, the main issue is that in some aspects they do no support the juridical system. So yeah, regular right wing compared to American standards but I think we can all agree that respecting the trias politica is a good thing in any country.

I’ll be honest, as an American looking in from the outside, this looks like the leftist parties in Germany trying to silence the opposition. If the party is expelling the true extremists like the Neo-Nazi former party members that you mentioned, I don’t see why they should be held responsible for them. This would be like declaring the entire American Republican Party extreme-far right because of a few whack jobs like…

Their anti rule of law stance, their criticism of parliament, their idolatry of ancestry, genealogy and genetics.

Also their retoric: their default stance is the fundamental attribution error (my ingroup failed because we were betrayed/cheated, your outgroup failed because you are lazy/bad/inferior). When your bonapartist (which is cesarism+nationalism basically) ideology is tinted (or tainted I would say, but I'm biased) with that reasoning mistake, you're close to fascism. Some people could call them post-fascists, but to me post-fascism died in Italy in the 80s (not true, I have a post-fascist friend, but they're extremely rare). Because they're too dumb to have real 'thinkers' (and they don't read anyway), they rehash old ideas and dunk everything at the wall to see what stick (which can work l), to me they're closer to proto-fascists (see Balkan nationalists the the late 19th century).

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#48

Post by throw123xz »

roenxi wrote: post #16

Given that AfD represents ~20.8% of the vote, 25% of the Bundestag and have upwards trending poll numbers; we can probably start talking about the collapse of democracy in Germany if they aren't allowed to engage politically as any other party. These numbers are too large to ignore. I wish the Germans the best of luck and reiterate that declaring war on their own energy supply was probably a mistake.

[dead]

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#49

Post by soco »

_mlbt wrote: post #34
thrance wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should tell you more about how far right America has gotten. What's your definition of extreme-right and why don't they fit it? Both the GOP and the AFD are acting extra-constitutionally. Trump's administration has shown to Europeans that needed a reminder how dangerous these politics can be.

I would argue that the American right wing has actually shifted a bit leftward in the past few decades. Gay marriage is now accepted by most Republicans for example. Trump is in many ways a 90s Democrat. His stance on illegal immigration, America first foreign policy, and protectionist tariffs are actually not that extreme historically for our country. The mass deportations are a reaction to the unprecedented scale o…

A lot of words here but not much knowledge of politics. Calling western people "marxists" while showing absolutely no clue what Marx proposed (hint: common ownership, stateless society...). If reliable healthcare for citizens is "far left" where exactly on the map would we put communism? Or what is then center, and what is right? And what is then "far right", hunting homeless for sport? I don't really care what the one or the other party trumpet claims, but I don't have to like such loud ignorance.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#50

Post by MaKey »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #32
mamonster wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, this could be used as the basis for the banning of the party. That said , I don't think the incoming government would allow it as Germany isn't super stable at the moment. At a minimum, this will be used as the basis for removing any talk of coalitions/joint votes etc within the CDU, so Merz or anyone after him can't attempt to go around the Brandmauer(mind you, this will be enforced by the parties themsel…

> You can expect the same thing as with FN/RN in France before the developments within the last 2 years, i.e any right wing party not voting resolutions that are submitted by AfD even if they are 95% identical to what is in their own programme. But I think this contributes to the general distrust of the population towards incumbent politicians. I don't know about Germany, but in France the situation becomes ridiculou…

> If everyone's an extremist, that word soon loses its meaning. See: the boy who cried wolf. People are getting tired of this crap and can see trying to outlaw a growing party for "extremism" as a shameless political tactic. Which means actual extremists may go unnoticed.

What makes you think that the AfD isn't a right-wing extremist party?

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