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Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

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Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an alternative for 99% of the world and it’s fibre. Which brings everyone the same speeds instead of perpetuating a digital divide between cities and rural areas. Which may not be bad now but once we start moving to ten and hundred gigabit plans, solutions like Starlink are going to resemble dialup.

This makes zero sense. Fibre is not going to be economically viable in rural areas at all. If that's the only option, they won't have any internet at all. I also don't think we'll be moving to >10g plans anytime soon. Only a small portion of users have even close to 1g, and everyone else seems fine with it.

Somehow we managed to bring telephone and electricity to rural areas but golly a fiber line is just too hard.

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#42
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of rural areas have small-scale wireless ISPs at 10-100mbps. You just have to install a directional antenna on your roof. This doesn't work once you get really remote, nor does fiber. In any case none of them beat the experience of pulling an antenna out of a box and it pretty much just working.

These services are generally terrible compared to Starlink.

No doubt, but given the cost and challenge of launching a satellite, I think your best bet if your rural enclave despises Starlink for whatever reason, right now your best bet is to run fiber to a single house and make a mini wireless ISP.

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#43
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird, I'm sitting here in a rural area and I have 1g fiber. You may have forgotten that cooperatives exist. It's a common error, since they mainly exist in exurb and rural areas. The cool thing is that since they often own the power right of way, they can run fiber on it without any change. The way coops work is that we're the owners, we vote for initiatives, etc. The local power company is now our region's #1 inter…

If you get 'free' fiber you are just punting the cost to other members. It cost me $15,000 to establish my co-op membership 1,000 ft it went to the next guy. Our bylaws require all members to pay 100% of the full unsubsidized cost of extension up front. This is fairly common. Not a lot of co-ops are built where prior entrants foot the full cost of new entrants. The real cost of extending fiber can be $10+ a foot over…

Where was "free fiber" mentioned? The only thing I can figure is that you mistaked an "n" for an "r", maybe?

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get 'free' fiber you are just punting the cost to other members. It cost me $15,000 to establish my co-op membership 1,000 ft it went to the next guy. Our bylaws require all members to pay 100% of the full unsubsidized cost of extension up front. This is fairly common. Not a lot of co-ops are built where prior entrants foot the full cost of new entrants. The real cost of extending fiber can be $10+ a foot over…

Where was "free fiber" mentioned? The only thing I can figure is that you mistaked an "n" for an "r", maybe?

Looks like I misread

>they can run fiber on it without any change.

I thought it said without charge, my bad. High cost but no change I guess.

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#45
post #31

The world needs an alternative to Starlink yesterday. If you criticize Musk on X, the self-proclaimed “free speech absolutist” will reduce distribution of your posts [1]. We don't want someone like that owning critical internet infrastructure. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/04/23/business/elon...

Why is Bezos preferable to Elon?

It doesn’t have to be Bezos, but competition is preferable to monopolies

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#46
While I think we need alternatives to Starlink and competition in the space[0], I think we need to recognize that there are physical limitations. Consequently there is a natural monopoly here, and if we have too many providers we will block out the sky[1] and risk creating the Kessler Syndrome[2]. While these satellites are being target at LEO and will naturally decay, lessening the harm if a Kessler effect arises, I think it is worth noting.

Interestingly, we had a strikingly similar event happen not too long ago: telecom.

When it was all wired, we had a choice: to allow wide competition and let the wires block out the skies[3], or share. The same problem happened again when it came to the airwaves. And again when it came to satellite communications. Here we are, at the natural continuation of this.

The physics of these things means that there are natural limitations that can't be avoided and can create advantages that can't be superseded, harming competition[4]. The physics means that there are better frequencies than others to use. The physics means that there are better orbits than others. Certainly first mover should be rewarded, but certainly the first mover cannot have undo power to squash any competition. That does not benefit anyone[5].

So now with a second player is this space[!0], we need to take the notion more seriously. Opinions of Musk aside[6], we're at a point where action need be taken. If the ball doesn't get rolling on this then everyone is worse off.[7]

I want to stress that this is a global issue. Even if the US solves the problem for US companies (in whatever manner that is), this doesn't change the fact that those laws of physics still apply and other countries exist. What about companies in China? India? Europe? Or other countries/regions? This was less of a problem for other communications but at this point the importance of a global solution becomes necessary. There is not enough space[0] for even a few countries to throw up their own mega constellations. They will start interfering with one another....

The truth of the matter is a coalition provides a better tool for everyone. But no coalition means the service is worse for every player. It is a literal Tragedy of the Commons[8] situation.

[0] pun unintended

[1] Mostly to Earth based astronomy. But there are other consequences and visible light isn't the only portion of the EM spectrum that is blocked. Plus... there's the physical layer!

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

[3] https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/58872/did-they-r...

[4] If government has a role in the economy I think even those that are fairly libertarian agree that it should ensure competition is able to occur (even if that the means is through stepping back).

[5] Even in the long run it does not benefit the company in power. Only in the short term is there an advantage.

[6] Disclosure: I am very much not a fan. (Please don't get me started... I'd like to stay on this topic. At least for a bit. The other parts are also important but I'm hoping we can have a serious talk about this one thing. If nothing more than to solve a mutual problem)

[7] Even if you are a fan of Musk I think it is likely that we can agree that Musk's involvement in this decision making process should exclusively come from the perspective of SpaceX and not through his influence in the government. A functioning and competitive market needs a neutral third party decision maker, or at be a mediator. Even the perception of undo influence is detrimental to the process. It'll be difficult (potentially impossible) to decouple given current conditions.

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it's currently configured and unstaged. That does not mean the vehicle is completely incapable of delivering payloads to LEO.

What second stage are you thinking of putting on top of it? Or, no less likely, what first stage are you thinking of putting under it?

You've got a detachable large payload up there right now that gets halfway to LEO. Presumably you've got a few options.

Here's a possible (and apparently simulated) option: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/51480/is-new-shepa...

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#48
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is great for you, but the vast majority of the world doesn't have such strong local organization consisting of members who can afford to pay for big ditch infrastructure.

Vast majority of the world is having fibre being laid by governments. You need to vote and encourage others to make fast internet an election issue.

I'm sorry, but in an environment where sovreignty is increasingly the dominant election issue, fiber doesn't rate.

And even if every house has fiber, there are still many cases for mobile and robust Internet that can't be covered by cellular networks.

The reality is that Starlink needs a competitor. And besides, satellite Internet from LEO satellites is a viable competitive option to fiber, based on infrastructure costs alone. It's all nice to convince slow moving bureaucracies to lay out fiber, but nobody wants to wait the five to ten years for that to happen, when you can subscribe today and get it within a week.

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#49
post #25

The world needs an alternative to Starlink yesterday. If you criticize Musk on X, the self-proclaimed “free speech absolutist” will reduce distribution of your posts [1]. We don't want someone like that owning critical internet infrastructure. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/04/23/business/elon...

It's hilarious hearing family/friends who I have invited to remote areas shit-talk Starlink while using it, because we have no great other choice. Personally I will buy internet from Satan himself if it works and for the right price.

Are you saying this includes the price of not being allowed to criticize the CEO?

Re: Amazon launches first Kuiper internet satellites in bid to take on Starlink

#50

That's a really interesting name. How would you pronounce it?

The Kuiper Belt is a big mess of space debris in the outer Solar System. It's where many comets and asteroids may originate before we spot them coming towards the Sun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt

It's a rather apropros name for a project which likewise plans to pollute Earth orbit with a bunch of space junk in order to compete with other junk providers. Hopefully their junk does not often touch.

In related news, I also learned recently that the Oort Cloud may not exist at all. I've often seen objects referred to as "originating in the Oort Cloud" but Oort himself had simply developed a hypothesis, and the "Cloud" has not progressed beyond "hypothesis" status since that time. It's amazing how imaginary structures enter our consciousness as if they are real, if enough scientists talk about it that way!

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