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Migrating away from Rust

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Re: Migrating away from Rust

#41

Post by bob1029 »

byearthithatius wrote: post #3

Love to have this comparison analysis. Huge LOC difference between Rust and C# (64k -> 17k!!!) though I am sure that is mostly access to additional external libraries that did things they wrote by hand in Rust.

> I am sure that is mostly access to additional external libraries that did things they wrote by hand in Rust

This is the biggest reason I push for C#/.NET in "serious business" where concerns like auditing and compliance are non-negotiable aspects of the software engineering process. Virtually all of the batteries are included already.

For example, which 3rd party vendors we use to build products is something that customers in sectors like banking care deeply about. No one is going to install your SaaS product inside their sacred walled garden if it depends on parties they don't already trust or can't easily vet themselves. Microsoft is a party that virtually everyone can get on board with in these contexts. No one has to jump through a bunch of hoops to explain why the bank should trust System or Microsoft namespaces. Having ~everything you need already included makes it an obvious choice if you are serious about approaching highly sensitive customers.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#42

Post by pclmulqdq »

Ygg2 wrote: post #38
jedisct1 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Rust is that almost everything is still at an alpha stage. The vast majority of crates are at version 0.x and are eventually abandoned, replaced, or subject to constant breaking changes While the language itself is great and stable, the ecosystem is not, and reverting to more conservative options is often the most reasonable choice, especially for long-term projects.

> The problem with Rust is that almost everything is still at an alpha stage. Replace Rust with Bevy and language with framework, you might have a point. Bevy is still in alpha, it's lacking plenty of things, mainly UI and an easy way to have mods. As for almost everything is at an alpha stage, yeah. Welcome to OSS + SemVer. Moving to 1.x makes a critical statement. It's ready for wider use, and now we take backwards…

Unfortunately, it is a failing of many projects in the Rust sphere that they spend quite a lot longer in 0.x than other projects. Rust language and library features themselves often spend years in nightly before making it to a release build.

You can also always go from 1.0 to 2.0 if you want to make breaking changes.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#43

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

jedisct1 wrote: post #29
krapht wrote: post #14

The article title is half-true. It wasn't so much they migrated away from Rust, but that they migrated away from Bevy, which is an alpha quality game engine. I wouldn't have read the article if it'd been labeled that, so kudos to the blog writer, I guess.

The problem with Rust is that almost everything is still at an alpha stage. The vast majority of crates are at version 0.x and are eventually abandoned, replaced, or subject to constant breaking changes While the language itself is great and stable, the ecosystem is not, and reverting to more conservative options is often the most reasonable choice, especially for long-term projects.

>”reverting to more conservative options”

From what I’ve heard about the Rust community, you may have made an unintentionally witty pun.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#44

Post by legobmw99 »

Jyaif wrote: post #34
krapht wrote: post #14

The article title is half-true. It wasn't so much they migrated away from Rust, but that they migrated away from Bevy, which is an alpha quality game engine. I wouldn't have read the article if it'd been labeled that, so kudos to the blog writer, I guess.

They mentioned ABI and the ability to create mods, which are Rust things. Here's a thought experiment: Would Minecraft have been as popular if it had been written in Rust instead of Java?

I mean, we already have a sort-of answer, because the "Bedrock Edition" of Minecraft is written in C++, and it is indeed less popular on PC (on console, it's the only option, so _overall_ it might win out) and does lack any real modding scene

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#45

Post by cogman10 »

monkeyelite wrote: post #21

It’s incredible how many projects and articles have been written around ECS with very little results. Quake 1-3 uses a single array of structs, with sometimes unused properties. Is your game more complex than quake 3? The “ECS” upgrade to that is having an array for each component type but just letting there be gaps: transform[eid].position += … physics[eid].velocity = …

The important part of ECS (IMO) is more that it's a pattern that others recognize and less that it's necessarily the best pattern to use.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#46

Post by Sleaker »

Anyone else get an empty page on mobile Firefox when they try to go the article? All that renders for me is a comment entry box. If I go back to news I can see the article list just fine.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#47

Post by gh0stcat »

koakuma-chan wrote: post #27
ivanjermakov wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More surprising part for me is not migrating from Rust/Bevy, but migrating _to_ C#/Unity. Although points mentioned in the post are quite valid.

Where would you migrate to?

Not OP, but it seems that there is still a huge sentiment that Unity is not a "safe" platform to migrate to because of their relatively antagonistic approach to monetization guidelines compared to other open source game engines. I do think it makes sense to also consider Godot given his coworker is his brother who is stated to be new to game development, it has a scripting language even simpler than C#, more like python. Additionally, one might expect that someone more into Rust might prefer the C++ integration that Unreal offers. I think the timeline had an effect here too, as it's not been until recently that people have been taking Godot more seriously.

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#48

Post by fooker »

dist-epoch wrote: post #32
monkeyelite wrote: post #21

It’s incredible how many projects and articles have been written around ECS with very little results. Quake 1-3 uses a single array of structs, with sometimes unused properties. Is your game more complex than quake 3? The “ECS” upgrade to that is having an array for each component type but just letting there be gaps: transform[eid].position += … physics[eid].velocity = …

Quake 1-3 were written for computers where memory was not much slower than the CPU as is the situation today. But yeah, probably you don't need an ECS for 90% of the games.

Memory is sometimes faster today!

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#49

Post by Seattle3503 »

lynndotpy wrote: post #23

I love Rust, but this lines up with my experience roughly. Especially the rapid iteration. Tried things out with Bevy, but I went back to Godot. There are so many QoL things which would make Rust better for gamedev without revamping the language. Just a mode to automatically coerce between numeric types would make Rust so much more ergonomic for gamedev. But that's a really hard sell (and might be harder to implement…

What numeric types typically need conversions?

Re: Migrating away from Rust

#50

Post by pjmlp »

sadeshmukh wrote: post #33
koakuma-chan wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where would you migrate to?

Maybe godot? The unity scandal recently is not great for developers.

People forget that Unity and Unreal are industry darlings for a reason.

The amount of platforms they support, the amount of features they support, many of which could be a PhD thesis in graphics programming, the tooling, the store,....

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