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On loyalty to your employer (2018)

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Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#41

Post by agubelu »

Haul4ss wrote: post #30
agubelu wrote: post #20

I dislike the word "loyalty" when talking about employment. Loyalty is for your spouse, friends and family. Your relationship with your employer is a contractual one. When it comes to my job, I believe in doing your best possible work, being professional and acting in good faith. I expect to be paid fairly and treated with respect. If this relationship is mutually beneficial, it can go on for a long while. But it's i…

This is a very rich-world view of work. Most people can't just "unilaterally rescind" their employment if they decide they don't like it anymore. I don't disagree with what you're getting at, just understand that loyalty is a necessity to a lot of folks, and I don't think it is because their values are misplaced.

I understand your point, but I wouldn't call that loyalty either. Loyalty is a choice, you could cheat on your partner, but you choose not to.

What you're talking about is necessity. If you don't have the possibility to simply walk away from a job, then you're sticking around because you must, not because you're loyal.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#42

Post by keiferski »

Meta comment: the situation with employee-employer loyalty seems pretty similar to the loyalty situation in other aspects of modern life like dating/marriage partner-partner, politician-constituent, or friend-friend: you're not incentivized to be loyal and in a lot of situations, you're actually incentivized to not be loyal and to continually look for better opportunities.

To me, that feels like a failure of the deeper social system. I want to be loyal to the people I work for/with, not treat our relationship like a transaction that is socially acceptable to end at any minute. And in a bigger sense, I don't think it results in organizations that do truly good work over longer timescales.

Maybe the solution isn't Japanese-style one megacorporation for life employment...but a few steps toward incentivizing loyalty probably wouldn't hurt.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#43

Post by speff »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #15
comradesmith wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have rent and calorie upkeep costs

I saw an interview with Cesar Milan a few years back where he talked about how he survived after first coming to the US. He said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) > "America is amazing, you could get two hotdogs for $1 at 7-11. That's all I needed to survive." When we visited Tokyo last year, we ended up eating a lot of 7-11 onigiri for breakfast as there weren't many places open when we were up and heading o…

Along the same lines, my parents - immigrants into the US in the late-80s - would always tell me that food in the US is cheap. Granted, this was more true for restaurant/fast-food prior to a few years ago. But the point still holds for grocery store items if you know how to cook/shop.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#44

Post by mytailorisrich »

mattlondon wrote: post #36
closewith wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, the OP is in the EU and UK, where none of the above is true. That said, he's a recruiter and there's nothing of value to be found in the blog post.

Well they can't fire you totally on the spot in the UK, but I believe they can put you on immediate "gardening leave" where you lose all access to systems and buildings etc. You'll still get paid and are still technically employed, but you'll not be working on anything and can't go to the office. I think there is some expectation for gardening leave to be available for the odd call or meeting for doing handovers etc,…

You can actually be fired on the spot, this is called "summary dismissal", but only applies in case of gross misconduct, so the cases that become "office lore" ;)

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#45

Post by smokel »

This article is written by a recruiter. Recruiters make less money if everyone stays put. So repeating this trope about employees being transactions might be great for them, but it does not contribute to a more friendly society.

A bit of trust and loyalty makes working together a lot more enjoyable. And not every CEO is a narcissist. Just stay away from the really big companies, and you might be fine.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#46

Post by borgster »

Most wars involve deception at some level and then loyalty is vital. You need to prove that to the command center in stages. But when you get in you're rewarded handsomely.

Many low quality engineers have accidently stumbled upon this lucrative truth, simply because they had low optionality to move elsewhere and therefore also rank ethical considerations very low as a motivating criterion.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#47

Post by OutOfHere »

keiferski wrote: post #42

Meta comment: the situation with employee-employer loyalty seems pretty similar to the loyalty situation in other aspects of modern life like dating/marriage partner-partner, politician-constituent, or friend-friend: you're not incentivized to be loyal and in a lot of situations, you're actually incentivized to not be loyal and to continually look for better opportunities. To me, that feels like a failure of the deep…

That's complete nonsense. An employer is nothing like a partner. And as for those who are not loyal to friends, they will quickly find themselves without any.

As long as the employer is not solving world hunger or finding a cure for disease, the relationship is strictly transactional, and will remain as such.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#48

Post by surgical_fire »

smokel wrote: post #45

This article is written by a recruiter. Recruiters make less money if everyone stays put. So repeating this trope about employees being transactions might be great for them, but it does not contribute to a more friendly society. A bit of trust and loyalty makes working together a lot more enjoyable. And not every CEO is a narcissist. Just stay away from the really big companies, and you might be fine.

> So repeating this trope about employees being transactions might be great for them, but it does not contribute to a more friendly society.

And repeating the trope that employees should be loyal to employers only benefit corporations and those that profit from them, to the detriment of labour.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#49

Post by keiferski »

OutOfHere wrote: post #47
keiferski wrote: post #42

Meta comment: the situation with employee-employer loyalty seems pretty similar to the loyalty situation in other aspects of modern life like dating/marriage partner-partner, politician-constituent, or friend-friend: you're not incentivized to be loyal and in a lot of situations, you're actually incentivized to not be loyal and to continually look for better opportunities. To me, that feels like a failure of the deep…

That's complete nonsense. An employer is nothing like a partner. And as for those who are not loyal to friends, they will quickly find themselves without any. As long as the employer is not solving world hunger or finding a cure for disease, the relationship is strictly transactional, and will remain as such.

I didn't say that they are similar types of things, but that similar incentive structures are at play across them. That seems pretty obvious to me if we look at 1) the way employees make more money by changing jobs often and 2) how people using dating apps are always complaining about FOMO, infinite choice, and so on. In both situations the "user" is incentivized to not be loyal.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#50

Post by glimshe »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #22
arjonagelhout wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a person who can’t see themselves stop working, I think an important factor is how one derives meaning from their life. For some it might be living amazing experiences, and for others it can be in helping others (which could qualify as work). The healthiest seems to be a combination of the two, with a different ratio depending on the person. Here in the Netherlands it’s common to see retired people do vol…

"Work" here I would define as exchanging time for money. Volunteering is not work. For me personally, I make a distinction between "working" and "creating". I will always want to create (a very broad term), but I will not always want to work. In fact, I don't want to work now; I only want to create. The best is when I can exchange my creation for money -- then it is no longer work.

"I work at a nonprofit"

"I worked on my yard today"

Your definition is arbitrary and goes against the established use of the word. Work can be many things. When people say they don't want to stop working, they are just saying they want to keep changing the world in big or small ways until they die.

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