Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

theconversation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 82 posts

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#41

Post by jorgen123 »

luckylion wrote: post #16
mstipetic wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, weren’t they? My kids can name more superheroes and Pokémon than animals and plants. My neighbors don’t notice when it doesn’t rain in March and April (when there should be 22 rainy days) and get annoyed when it does because it ruins the nice weather.

Why would your neighbors worry about rain, unless they are farmers or otherwise directly impacted? We've generally abandoned "being in touch with nature" for focusing on specific niches, and it's so incredibly more efficient that you can have large groups of people who focus on systems based on purely made up things, like sports. If they both needed the probability of rain three days from now, who do you think would…

You may be thinking about a short term need only. Longer term (annual and more) if you are in a state that is susceptible to drought and wildfires, you would worry about the lack of rain during a period when it is supposed to rain. The rain fills aquifers and increases soil moisture content which carry you through the dry season.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#42

Post by BlueTemplar »

lurk2 wrote: post #3
antics9 wrote: post #2

And no mention in the article of the ways of culture that managed the systems.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Episteme vs metis ?

https://samzdat.com/2017/05/22/man-as-a-rationalist-animal/

(The free market does sound closer to metis... but is also EXTREMELY focused on the short term, see : negative externalities. )

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#43

Post by mock-possum »

627467 wrote: post #28

> Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms – what archaeologists call culture – were fundamentally integrated into technological solutions in this part of Peru in ancient times. Isolating and removing the tools from that knowledge made them less effective. Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms may have helped indigenous people perpetuate the solutions/technologies. Studying and understanding those may help people - today…

Exactly - just because they used culture, or religion, to underpin that stuff - doesn’t mean we need to. Doesn’t mean we need to use the same culture, or even the same religion, for that matter. “This is what works, and this is why it works, and this is the benefit, and this is why it’s worthwhile” can be enough, with a minimum of pretense.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#44

Post by LgWoodenBadger »

xeromal wrote: post #37
elif wrote: post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

IDK if it was inka but I was in a town called Ollataytombo or something like that for a week and they had this adorable little aqueduct that ran straight through town and people washed their clothes and whatnot in it. Loved how a lot of those mountain towns had them.

Ollantaytambo. A beautiful ancient town

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#46

Post by BlueTemplar »

like_any_other wrote: post #36
notarobot123 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Moche and Chimu canal was tied to a complex labor system that synchronized cleaning and maintenance and prioritized the efficient use of water. There's also a link which points to more details but it doesn't look to be accessible: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-antiquity/a...

That single sentence, which is the totality of the description given in the long and winding article, doesn't actually explain anything - the efficient use of water is the obvious goal of any irrigation system, especially in a desert. But how did it efficiently use water? The only hint of information is "synchronized cleaning and maintenance", and not a word on synchronized how or with what, or why this should help.…

I know nothing about the subject, but it only took me a few minutes to follow references to find what looks like it might be the answer that you are looking for ?

https://www.proquest.com/ openview/768dad5fa2923211ed1128cfa33d5a29/1?cbl=18750&diss=y&pq-origsite=gscholar

(It does sound like a great idea for a layman-focused documentary, and I would be surprised if none exist yet.)

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#47

Post by AlotOfReading »

tomrod wrote: post #20
Spooky23 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you study this stuff in the americas it’s depressing as the Spanish in particular slaughtered people and culture so completely and unimpeded for so long. The evil and barbarism of this colonial episode is difficult to fathom. The 20th century horror show of slaughter ran in relatively short episodes… this imperial era ran for hundreds of years. Because you’re left with archeological evidence, whose interpretation…

The Spanish, the Portuguese, and most importantly, diseases that killed massive proportions of the population.

The disease aspects are inseparable from colonialism. Here's a quote from a recent survey on the matter [0] that describes the current understanding much better than I would:

    The contours of Indigenous depopulation were shaped not only by disease but also by complex colonial factors including violence, forced labor, exorbitant taxation, malnutrition, and dislocation. Archaeology has shown that Native populations were not destined to be decimated but were made vulnerable through the policies, choices, and behaviors of colonists.
[0] https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97804292...

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#48

Post by BlueTemplar »

typewithrhythm wrote: post #32
elif wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

It seems like that's an impossibility, since you would need to find something in the current era that has been abandoned, rather than decommissioned... There are a few examples that might fit, some earthworks, (tunnels, breakwaters, dams) and navigation markers come to mind (costal, but we also put retro reflectors on the moon).

Yeah, I was thinking about Vauban's fortifications, but if any of those had been abandoned, it's specifically because they would have been mostly useless after WW1 (= non-functional).

Hmm, any Vauban-like fortifications in Ukraine that would have suddenly found a new use since 2014 ?

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#49

Post by luckylion »

jorgen123 wrote: post #41
luckylion wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would your neighbors worry about rain, unless they are farmers or otherwise directly impacted? We've generally abandoned "being in touch with nature" for focusing on specific niches, and it's so incredibly more efficient that you can have large groups of people who focus on systems based on purely made up things, like sports. If they both needed the probability of rain three days from now, who do you think would…

You may be thinking about a short term need only. Longer term (annual and more) if you are in a state that is susceptible to drought and wildfires, you would worry about the lack of rain during a period when it is supposed to rain. The rain fills aquifers and increases soil moisture content which carry you through the dry season.

In general, yes. But most advanced societies delegate these topics because it's very inefficient if you and everyone else studies wild fires, rain patterns, deer impact on soil compression and what not -- it'll be much more efficient if a few study it deeply and then present the results and concrete actions.

Division of labor goes for division of scientific labor, too.

Granted, there seems to be an increasing trust issue in taking those results as true, but that's a separate issue.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#50

Post by like_any_other »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #46
like_any_other wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That single sentence, which is the totality of the description given in the long and winding article, doesn't actually explain anything - the efficient use of water is the obvious goal of any irrigation system, especially in a desert. But how did it efficiently use water? The only hint of information is "synchronized cleaning and maintenance", and not a word on synchronized how or with what, or why this should help.…

I know nothing about the subject, but it only took me a few minutes to follow references to find what looks like it might be the answer that you are looking for ? https://www.proquest.com/ openview/768dad5fa2923211ed1128cfa33d5a29/1?cbl=18750&diss=y&pq-origsite=gscholar (It does sound like a great idea for a layman-focused documentary, and I would be surprised if none exist yet.)

Oh sure - but given that that is what the article is purportedly about, it would be nice if it had been included in the text itself.
Post reply on HN