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Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

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Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#41

Post by Aeolun »

aozgaa wrote: post #26
taklimakan wrote: post #12

This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.

This is addressed in the article: > Turns out, it doesn’t matter that much where your first offer is from, or even how much they’re offering you. Just having an offer in hand will get the engine running. > If you’re already in the pipeline with other companies (which you should be if you’re doing it right), you should proactively reach out and let them know that you’ve just received an offer. Try to build a sense of…

Me too. It was utterly bizarre. Spent 6 month looking for a job, with I don’t know how many failed interviews, then I got one offer for a 6 month contract, and suddenly the next two companies I interviewed with were falling over themselves to give me a permanent one.

I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#42

Post by reset0684 »

neilv wrote: post #18
soneca wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which rules would be different in particular, you think?

Sorry, that was a confusing choice of term by me, when the article already used the term "rule". I mean the courtship dynamics. When it's a buyer's market -- or the buyers think it is -- some of the candidate tactics are going to play differently. Even the old advice that, once the company decides they want you, that changes the dynamics, and now opens up negotiation. The dynamics maybe don't change as much as they u…

Midwest, not Silicon Valley, but that's my current experience. I've already got a job and just got an offer which would be a small pay cut. So, I told them I'm excited about the work, etc but I just can't take a pay cut.

They remained firm that they couldn't budge on salary even a little. Then remained firm as I asked for a signing bonus (denied) and reduced hours (denied). This company doesn't do stock at all and they've already got unlimited PTO so no room to negotiate there.

Meanwhile, their interview feedback indicated I did very well. They unanimously wanted me, and I slightly exceeded their technical expectations for the role.

Seems tougher than I remember from before covid.

(Throwaway since I don't want this tied to my name for my current or future employer to find.)

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#43

Post by jghn »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #40

Here is my negotiation tactic: “I see on levels.fyi that people of my level make X dollars, I want the top of that range” And magically I got 25% more TC. Only works for big enough companies with salary datapoints online. It is kind of crazy how there is a bifurcation of TC between those who bothered to negotiate and those who didn’t. Being on the inside I know there are ranges for positions and if you push you can p…

Don't even need to make an argument.

"I'll work for you if you give me X"

"Here is X-Y"

"No thanks"

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#44

Post by palata »

ryandrake wrote: post #35
taklimakan wrote: post #12

This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.

In a 25 year career, I've never really managed to significantly negotiate compensation upwards, either at the job offer phase or for raises once I'm in. It's always a "take it or leave it" offer and yea, I've chosen to leave it a few times. Recruiter: "Here's your offer for $X compensation." You: "I was actually looking for something paying $X+Y." Recruiter: "Well our offer is $X." You: "This data shows that comparab…

Not an expert, but my impression is that many companies (maybe especially startups) don't say "we offer $X". They will try to ask you how much you expect as early as possible: if that's way too high, they won't even interview you, if it's too low you're screwed because they won't go higher anymore.

I don't think I'm negotiating to get a better compensation than what is reasonable. On the contrary, I'm negotiating to get a fair compensation.

Some companies (bigger ones) will just say "we hire you for this title, so the compensation is $X and we don't negotiate because we want it to be fair for your colleagues". Then I don't think you can negotiate much, but at the same time they're probably not screwing you. It's just what it's worth to them, take it or leave it.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#45

Post by dangus »

> If you must divulge what you’re making

Never do that.

> Companies will ask about your current compensation at different stages in the process

This is not legal in many states, 44% of the US population lives in states where companies asking your salary is not legl.

Also, the exploding offer advice is terrible. It won't work. The company will just drop the offer. The actual advice is to decide quickly.

I also think that gaining some chump change during the negotiation is somewhat pointless as companies will just equalize salary bands over time.

Let's say you win $5-10k additional salary during negotiation. Great, now your second year's salary increase is only going to be 2% instead of 5%.

I think the real advice in the age of states having salary transparency laws is to not apply to jobs that don't have a salary range listed in the job description.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#46

Post by magneticnorth »

Aeolun wrote: post #41
aozgaa wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is addressed in the article: > Turns out, it doesn’t matter that much where your first offer is from, or even how much they’re offering you. Just having an offer in hand will get the engine running. > If you’re already in the pipeline with other companies (which you should be if you’re doing it right), you should proactively reach out and let them know that you’ve just received an offer. Try to build a sense of…

Me too. It was utterly bizarre. Spent 6 month looking for a job, with I don’t know how many failed interviews, then I got one offer for a 6 month contract, and suddenly the next two companies I interviewed with were falling over themselves to give me a permanent one. I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.

In addition to your (presumably positive-enough) interview performance that the later company has themselves, they also have a "hire" recommendation from an entire other interview loop at a different company.

That's a strong signal, and probably puts you ahead of most people interviewing at the later company, who only have the one set of positive feedback.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#47

Post by cdavid »

Aeolun wrote: post #41
aozgaa wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is addressed in the article: > Turns out, it doesn’t matter that much where your first offer is from, or even how much they’re offering you. Just having an offer in hand will get the engine running. > If you’re already in the pipeline with other companies (which you should be if you’re doing it right), you should proactively reach out and let them know that you’ve just received an offer. Try to build a sense of…

Me too. It was utterly bizarre. Spent 6 month looking for a job, with I don’t know how many failed interviews, then I got one offer for a 6 month contract, and suddenly the next two companies I interviewed with were falling over themselves to give me a permanent one. I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.

It is at least in part because of how recruiting works, especially in large tech companies. Companies have many candidates for each role, and can't easily review all of them. Between bureaucracy, how busy the hiring manager is, etc. many candidates get lost in the process.

This is why 1) it really helps to have a referral and 2) tell the recruiter when you have competing roles. Neither will change much about getting or not a role, but they will really help the prioritization and avoid you getting lost.

Paradoxically, that effect is bigger nowadays when the market is not as hot as it used to be, because recruiting is more stretched. Even some FAANG are very understaffed on the recruiting side

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#48

Post by palata »

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary".

I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me get a raise of a few bucks per month, that will pay for it".

It didn't go as planned: I followed the instructions in the book, my boss spent an hour bullshitting me and I didn't get a raise. So I sent my resignation the next day. The boss called me back, and I got a substantial raise and a bonus (to compensate for the shitty salary I had been having before, it was not a miracle).

All that to say that this book did not make me a pro negotiator. But it made me understand how salary negotiation works (reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life). And it gave me the confidence to actually ask for a raise.

Totally worth it.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step...

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#49

Post by CharlieDigital »

davely wrote: post #19
CharlieDigital wrote: post #5

Lots of good gems > And yet, when people talk about the labor market, they think “oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper. > > Dispel yourself of this mindset. > > A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value). > > Negotiating is a nat…

> Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate Is this really the case? If a company is giving you an offer, presumably they want to hire you. At that point, does the recruiter, your hiring manager, your skip level, the CTO, the CEO even care at that point? Does this respect ever come into play in future performance reviews? I personally don’t think so, but I’ve only ever worked for larger companies. I’ve alw…

I can't say that this is a blanket truth; of course size of org matters, too.

But I think there's an effect like a "bet" that now favors the candidate that negotiated. When you negotiate and the hiring manager or company accepts, it's like they're placing a bet that you were absolutely the best candidate in that pool.

Imagine you're the one doing the hiring. What kind of candidate would you extend extra compensation to? Only one that you believe would truly improve your organization and in doing so, you -- on the hiring side -- are placing a bet.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#50

Post by bengarney »

ivanmontillam wrote: post #17
andrewstuart wrote: post #11

I've negotiated hundreds of salaries for developers and tech people. The key to negotiating is to get to a deal that both parties feel happy with - if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength. Here is what I know about negotiating: 1: know in advance the salary that you want 2: aim for a salary that is not at the high end, not a…

> if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength. Could you please provide an example of said scenario? > if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at. Yes, I second this. It once…

As someone on the hiring side, I strongly agree with GP.

I can think of a specific example where someone with experience and strong qualifications pushed for a higher salary - which I agreed to - then struggled with the role and ended up not sticking around. In another instance, someone had lower qualifications and experience, but also negotiated hardest out of their hiring cohort - same outcome, plus they weren't a great fit personality wise.

Meanwhile, I can think of several other people who cross-trained from their initial non-technical careers at the local community college, came in with low experience, didn't negotiate aggressively (although did stand up for themselves)... They've done great work (and grown substantially and been good to work with) over the long term, and seem to enjoy working for me enough that a few who left for other jobs were interested in being hired again later on.

Negotiating employment terms is the first task you complete at a new job. It is a good predictor. If it leaves a bad taste in the mouth for either side, it's not a good sign of things to come...

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