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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#41

Post by kelipso »

jcranmer wrote: post #13
kelipso wrote: post #8

Way past time. The link between fluoride ingestion by children and pregnant women to lower IQ in children has been known for years. It's incredible how the scientific community in the US is so ignorant of this fact. Also, dentists have no neuroscience background! So let's take recommendations by dentists to ingest a neurotoxin with deep deep skepticism, shall we?

As the saying goes, it's the dose that makes the poison. Vitamin D is also quite toxic, would you celebrate banning that as well?

Yes, there is no need to add vitamin D into the water supply.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#42

Post by dataflow »

rayiner wrote: post #33
jsbisviewtiful wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn’t any. The very little research showing any effects on cognitive abilities are experiments using very high fluoride levels - nowhere near the levels in water. Like most conservative “stances”, it’s a farce.

Why did many European countries discontinue fluoridation? https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/11/23/trump-could-push-... > However, in 1973, the Dutch Supreme Court ruled that there was no legal basis for fluoridation…. The debate hasn’t been meaningfully revived since then, Hofman told Euronews Health. "People started to say, ‘Well, the government should not give us some medicine [when] we cannot choose where to bu…

Thanks for sharing the link. Learned something new today.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#43

Post by jiggawatts »

jedberg wrote: post #17
kelipso wrote: post #8

Way past time. The link between fluoride ingestion by children and pregnant women to lower IQ in children has been known for years. It's incredible how the scientific community in the US is so ignorant of this fact. Also, dentists have no neuroscience background! So let's take recommendations by dentists to ingest a neurotoxin with deep deep skepticism, shall we?

> The link between fluoride ingestion by children and pregnant women to lower IQ in children has been known for years Not at the levels it is found in water in the USA. Those studies were done in countries with much higher levels of fluoride.

The relationship appears to be linear down to zero, but it’s very hard to study near those levels. From what I’ve seen, the best current science is that the fluoridation levels in typical western countries are reducing average IQ by about 0.5-1.5 points.

For reference, adding lead to fuel was far, far worse.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#44

Post by jiggawatts »

I initially dismissed it as the same category of stupid as anti-vax beliefs, but it turns out that there are a decent amount of good studies showing a link between fluoride in water and (slightly) lower IQ when pregnant mothers ingest the fluoride. Note that there is no significant effect after birth.

The idea is to remove fluoride from water and advise pregnant women to use fluoride-free toothpaste.

Everyone else can get enough fluoride from modern toothpastes, or regular dentist treatments.

The logic is that fluoride in tap water made sense in the era before toothpaste had it, but now it is “overmedicating” a vulnerable fraction of the population.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#45

Post by Jimmc414 »

dataflow wrote: post #6

What is the best evidence in favor of this?

Here’s a list of the most convincing studies or meta analyses.

2023 – NTP Monograph on Fluoride Neurotoxicity – National Toxicology Program (USA)

2020 – Till et al. – Infant Formula Fluoride Exposure & IQ – Till C, Green R, Lanphear B, Hornung R, Martinez-Mier EA (Canada)

2019 – Green et al. – Maternal Fluoride Exposure & IQ – Green R, Lanphear B, Hornung R, Flora D, Martinez-Mier EA, et al. (Canada)

2017 – Bashash et al. – Prenatal Fluoride Exposure & Offspring IQ – Bashash M, Thomas D, Hu H, et al. (Mexico/USA)

2012 – Choi et al. – Meta-analysis on Fluoride & Neurodevelopment – Choi AL, Sun G, Zhang Y, Grandjean P (Harvard/China)

2006 – NRC Report – Fluoride in Drinking Water – National Research Council (USA)

[1] https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/...

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31743803/

[3] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...

[4] https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/EHP655

[5] https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1104912

[6] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/11571/fluoride-in-drinking-water...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#46

Post by [deleted] »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #45
dataflow wrote: post #6

What is the best evidence in favor of this?

Here’s a list of the most convincing studies or meta analyses. 2023 – NTP Monograph on Fluoride Neurotoxicity – National Toxicology Program (USA) 2020 – Till et al. – Infant Formula Fluoride Exposure & IQ – Till C, Green R, Lanphear B, Hornung R, Martinez-Mier EA (Canada) 2019 – Green et al. – Maternal Fluoride Exposure & IQ – Green R, Lanphear B, Hornung R, Flora D, Martinez-Mier EA, et al. (Canada) 2017 – Bashash e…

[deleted]

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#47

Post by robocat »

jedberg wrote: post #37
rayiner wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utah has among the best schools in the nation: https://www.reddit.com/r/Utah/comments/1idrt6j/utah_spends_t... It also has among the happiest citizens: https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/09/09/utah-mental-health-h... It has the highest economic mobility in the country: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammillsap/2023/12/22/utah-top... Despite being filled with guns, it’s got a homicide rate only a little higher than Cana…

A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of their income to the church (and enforce it!). Then they redistribute to their poorest members in the form of free private education at all pre-college levels and highly subsidized college as well. And with food banks, free or subsidized medical services, and whole b…

> [The Mormons] believe in giving 10% of their income

Is that income before tax or after tax?

"After tax" seems like it should be obvious, but then wouldn't that require tax specialists to decide how to deal with tax exceptions (retirement taxation incentives, donations, etcetera).

If the 10% donation is tax deductible, doesn't that require some mathematics to work out the 10%?

Irrelevant aside: I think the efficient altruist 10% is "We're often asked how exactly to calculate income — should it be pre-tax or post-tax? Generally, we recommend choosing the option that makes most sense to you, though we think it makes sense to choose pre-tax if your donations are tax-deductible (for example, GiftAid counts towards your Pledge!) and post-tax if they're not.". https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#48

Post by rayiner »

jedberg wrote: post #37
rayiner wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utah has among the best schools in the nation: https://www.reddit.com/r/Utah/comments/1idrt6j/utah_spends_t... It also has among the happiest citizens: https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/09/09/utah-mental-health-h... It has the highest economic mobility in the country: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammillsap/2023/12/22/utah-top... Despite being filled with guns, it’s got a homicide rate only a little higher than Cana…

A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of their income to the church (and enforce it!). Then they redistribute to their poorest members in the form of free private education at all pre-college levels and highly subsidized college as well. And with food banks, free or subsidized medical services, and whole b…

That’s the steel-man version of (american) conservatism: civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government.

And in terms of aggregate outcomes, Utah’s results are impressive. The LDS apparently does a better job teaching kids to read than the government here in Maryland.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#49

Post by jedberg »

robocat wrote: post #47
jedberg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of their income to the church (and enforce it!). Then they redistribute to their poorest members in the form of free private education at all pre-college levels and highly subsidized college as well. And with food banks, free or subsidized medical services, and whole b…

> [The Mormons] believe in giving 10% of their income Is that income before tax or after tax? "After tax" seems like it should be obvious, but then wouldn't that require tax specialists to decide how to deal with tax exceptions (retirement taxation incentives, donations, etcetera). If the 10% donation is tax deductible, doesn't that require some mathematics to work out the 10%? Irrelevant aside: I think the efficient…

It's pre-tax. It comes from the Bible where you set it aside "before anything else".

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#50

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #48
jedberg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of their income to the church (and enforce it!). Then they redistribute to their poorest members in the form of free private education at all pre-college levels and highly subsidized college as well. And with food banks, free or subsidized medical services, and whole b…

That’s the steel-man version of (american) conservatism: civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government. And in terms of aggregate outcomes, Utah’s results are impressive. The LDS apparently does a better job teaching kids to read than the government here in Maryland.

[deleted]
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