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Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

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Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#41

Post by ramraj07 »

lukev wrote: post #34

This happens every time this topic comes up on HN. A lot of commenters here apparently think that all "art" means is having an object that has a pleasing aesthetic. Meanwhile every artist knows that art is defined by _intersubjectivity_... it comes _from_ an experiencing, feeling subject and is interpreted and by other, experiencing, feeling subjects. So it doesn't actually matter if a lot of people who know nothing…

This sounds like how most smart people rationalize religion as well. I mean you do you, but to me, a canvas with blobs of stringy paint evokes more emotion if it was done by an elephant or a computer ai instead of some "troubled artist" in the 60s.

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#42

Post by karaterobot »

diggan wrote: post #3

> Songs arise out of suffering, by which I mean they are predicated upon the complex, internal human struggle of creation and, well, as far as I know, algorithms don’t feel. Data doesn’t suffer. Maybe I misunderstand this part, but it sounds like the author feels like it's required to suffer in order to produce something creative in the first place, and other artists that haven't suffered "enough" but produce things…

I think he addresses your question immediately following the comma. He's not saying you must have been, e.g., persecuted or downtrodden to create art, he's talking about the struggle of creation itself. He's saying art is hard to make, that if you're not overreaching you aren't making art, and he may be saying that what makes ChatGPT's output not art is that it's created automatically, within the scope of its limitations. All ChatGPT poetry made by the same model will be of a similar quality, because it's not ever going to transcend, and that's why it won't ever be art, regardless of quality. Or so he seems to be saying.

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#44

Post by [deleted] »

lukev wrote: post #34

This happens every time this topic comes up on HN. A lot of commenters here apparently think that all "art" means is having an object that has a pleasing aesthetic. Meanwhile every artist knows that art is defined by _intersubjectivity_... it comes _from_ an experiencing, feeling subject and is interpreted and by other, experiencing, feeling subjects. So it doesn't actually matter if a lot of people who know nothing…

[deleted]

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#46

Post by [deleted] »

getlawgdon wrote: post #8
jdmoreira wrote: post #2

[flagged]

What's "copium?" Is it one of those meme words (slang, we used to call it) used by people who haven't spent much time reading or writing? Or who can't detect how AI slop is nothing like actual writing? And why do you use the word "honestly" in your terse response? Would you otherwise have been lying? Or is it a crutch that you hope makes you more authentic? Honestly, I'd like to know. And why is there no punctuation…

[deleted]

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#47

Post by Fraterkes »

MiguelVieira wrote: post #7

"AI-generated poetry is indistinguishable from human-written poetry and is rated more favorably" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-76900-1

Theres a couple million works of poetry sold every year. If you have real faith in this study, this seems like a trivial way to make some millions. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is?

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#48

Post by basisword »

diggan wrote: post #3

> Songs arise out of suffering, by which I mean they are predicated upon the complex, internal human struggle of creation and, well, as far as I know, algorithms don’t feel. Data doesn’t suffer. Maybe I misunderstand this part, but it sounds like the author feels like it's required to suffer in order to produce something creative in the first place, and other artists that haven't suffered "enough" but produce things…

I think you're misunderstanding. He doesn't mean suffering in the sense that "bad things must happen to me before I have something to write about". He means that the act of creating something from nothing is in itself a difficult process in which the creator 'suffers'. You can rarely just create something easily out of thin air. Most of the time you have to put in a significant amount of effort and feel repeated frustrations before you write something good. This seems clear from the second and third parts of the sentence (after the first and second commas).

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#49

Post by jdietrich »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #13
diggan wrote: post #3

> Songs arise out of suffering, by which I mean they are predicated upon the complex, internal human struggle of creation and, well, as far as I know, algorithms don’t feel. Data doesn’t suffer. Maybe I misunderstand this part, but it sounds like the author feels like it's required to suffer in order to produce something creative in the first place, and other artists that haven't suffered "enough" but produce things…

I'm sure I am wading into dangerous waters here, but I kind of also think that "good" art, or perhaps I should say a particular kind of art that resonates with ones emotions, does come from the pain and suffering of the artist. It is because we also have known pain, jealousy, the death of a loved one, etc. that art sprung from that kind of suffering will "ring true". As I type this, I am looking at a painting on the…

I'm deeply sceptical of the "tortured artist" trope. A huge proportion of the greatest songs in the American canon were written by professionals, in what amounted to a factory system. They came into work, sat at a piano and just wrote, day in and day out. We are for whatever reason drawn to the romantic notion of the artist as divinely inspired genius, but I think that profoundly diminishes their skill and work ethic and the importance of professional communities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Building

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Pan_Alley

Re: Nick Cave's thoughts on a ChatGPT poem (2023)

#50

Post by basisword »

diggan wrote: post #31
lukev wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know anything about poetry, as an art form? Or are you judging purely on your (not only amateur, but complete outsider) aesthetics?

> Do you know anything about poetry, as an art form? What kind of gatekeeping is this? Parent mentioned they're read poems from their local bookstores, does that mean they don't/do understand it "as an art form"? Does their opinion become more or less valid if they do understand it "as an art form"?

It depends what you want from the poetry. If you want to read something that sounds nice and pretty or if you want something with deeper meaning and substance that requires you to think a bit more about what you're reading. I can see how ChatGPT could produce the former, but I doubt it can manage the latter.
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