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Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

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Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#41

Post by vbtemp »

dsolomon wrote: post #34
doktrin wrote: post #7

There are certainly some important take-aways in this article. What certainly hit home was the reference to high turnover. In my experience, attracting and retaining (perceived) top 1% developers is no small feat. It's damaging to a project when a "rockstar" developer builds out a product set in her chosen (often bleeding edge) framework / language, and then departs at the sign of another "fun" opportunity elsewhere.…

Personnel retention is easy - just demonstrate on any level that the contributions of the workforce is appreciated. Since I'm in the DC area too, with clearance, the number you're throwing around are a bit of a stretch. We've got junior developers in the high $30K range and senior in the mid $60K range.

Since I'm in the DC area too, without clearance, the numbers you're throwing around are not realistic. Junior developers will start in the 50's-60's (with BS), usually 70-80 with MS, and seniors will generally be 110+... In the contractor sphere with clearances, it will be correspondingly higher.

I do know that some agencies tried to give peanut wages to certain fresh-out-of-college students, but everyone I knew scoffed at it and found positions that paid twice as much elsewhere.

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#43

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

dsolomon wrote: post #31
patio11 wrote: post #27

The average starting salary for a senior Ruby developer has climbed to $94,000 ($107,000 in Silicon Valley). Compare that with the average salary for a junior Ruby developer, $70,000, ($80,000 in Silicone Valley). These numbers strike me as wildly below current market rates in the Valley, based on my discussions with people in it trying to hire. I'm willing to be wrong on that.

Here in the DC area tech talent is cheap. You can get senior developers for around $60K.

Seriously? Why wouldn't they move somewhere else then? They LIKE living in DC?

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#44

Post by patio11 »

dadkins wrote: post #32
patio11 wrote: post #27

The average starting salary for a senior Ruby developer has climbed to $94,000 ($107,000 in Silicon Valley). Compare that with the average salary for a junior Ruby developer, $70,000, ($80,000 in Silicone Valley). These numbers strike me as wildly below current market rates in the Valley, based on my discussions with people in it trying to hire. I'm willing to be wrong on that.

Would you mind being a little more specific? It's hard to get any solid numbers out of anyone, and the article provides some. If those are off, what do you think the current market rates are?

North of $100k for someone so recently out of undergrad that touching their degree would smudge the ink -- more for a good school or a candidate who looks particularly qualified. (i.e. Has done anything in life other than gotten good grades.) $120k+ for 3 years of professional experience with Ruby. I don't know what you'd define expert as but no plausible definition makes $107k sound reasonable.

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#45

Post by vbtemp »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #43
dsolomon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the DC area tech talent is cheap. You can get senior developers for around $60K.

Seriously? Why wouldn't they move somewhere else then? They LIKE living in DC?

No, he's not serious. Actual salaries are double-to-triple what he's saying.

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#46

Post by [deleted] »

notatoad wrote: post #25
chime wrote: post #3

What he should be saying is don't hire pompous pretend-to-know-it-alls. That is something all of us can agree with. But if you've spent the better part of the last two decades learning how to be a good developer and have applied your skills across various technologies, projects, and industries, you deserve the six-figure salary. Why? Because ten mediocre singers cannot sing as well as Aretha Franklin. Hire nice, comp…

Have you seen the job postings here on HN? They all use that exact language - rock star or ninja or some other silly adjective. It sounds like they're specifically looking for pompous know-it-alls. I think what he says is exactly what he should be saying (and for the most part, exactly the same thing you're saying).

[deleted]

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#47

Post by [deleted] »

dsolomon wrote: post #31
patio11 wrote: post #27

The average starting salary for a senior Ruby developer has climbed to $94,000 ($107,000 in Silicon Valley). Compare that with the average salary for a junior Ruby developer, $70,000, ($80,000 in Silicone Valley). These numbers strike me as wildly below current market rates in the Valley, based on my discussions with people in it trying to hire. I'm willing to be wrong on that.

Here in the DC area tech talent is cheap. You can get senior developers for around $60K.

[deleted]

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#48

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

michaelt wrote: post #28
shin_lao wrote: post #12

True ninja-rockstar engineers are professionals that don't exhibit the traits described. The senior engineer described resembles more of the diva who is actually rarely that good, because he cares too much about his ego to question himself and progress.

Does "ninja-rockstar engineer" sound modest to you, like someone who doesn't care about their ego?

Doesn't someone who can do 10x-20x the work of an average employee deserve a bit of an ego boost from time to time?

And that's if the "average" employee can do the work at all.

I've pulled so many "average" developers' nether regions out of the fire when they've gotten stuck that I've lost count. I don't care what term is used, but it's nice when the term actually describes the discrepancy between my performance and most developers.

Ninja-rockstar will do nicely, thank you. ;p

Seriously, though, MANY high-end developers in the start-up space are probably on the 10x-20x end of the spectrum. At least at the successful start-ups.

I'm sure there are exceptions for when the start-up is more about pushing data around in a mundane but novel way, and where the primary business value is NOT technically challenging. But even in those cases when the company scales it often has a problem, because the developers haven't done things optimally, and once you're already having scaling issues it's really hard to rearchitect everything to work better without messing up the existing site. YMMV.

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#49

Post by kragen »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #26
enko wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the question is whether startups, who are usually in intense competition and working against the clock, have the time and energy spare to lead people through that process. I wouldn't have thought so. A good place for juniors to start would be in normal web shops, not high-pressure startups. Do you think Tesla Motors grabbed a few engineering grads and shop floor assistants, chucked them in a room and hoped th…

> "I don't see why software startups are any different." You don't see how a photo-sharing app is different than starting an electric car company? That's a problem. I also think that's the point of the article: 99% of startups don't need rockstar developers. They aren't doing earth shattering engineering. Most startups need competence and nothing more. If they actually hired on that basis, it would help the eco-syste…

We're talking about software. If what you're doing is easy, you're doing it wrong; automate it and shatter the earth under the competition that's still doing it by hand. There are always opportunities for earth-shattering engineering in software.

Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers

#50

Post by shin_lao »

michaelt wrote: post #28
shin_lao wrote: post #12

True ninja-rockstar engineers are professionals that don't exhibit the traits described. The senior engineer described resembles more of the diva who is actually rarely that good, because he cares too much about his ego to question himself and progress.

Does "ninja-rockstar engineer" sound modest to you, like someone who doesn't care about their ego?

There is a mandatory amount of self-derision to be used with that kind of term, I agree.

Stars can really boost a team morale if they have the right amount of ego.

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