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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” -- Benjamin Franklin
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In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
41–50 of 457 posts
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the US also has private prisons. do you understand? e.g., there are about 1000 prisoners in california that are also firefighters getting paid $10 a day. “E.g.” is is misused here: California prison firefighters are not an example of private prisons (California does not employ private prisons.) > do you think they cost $10 a day to california? Well, yeah, they are state prisoners in state prisons, whos do you think…
The previous poster's point is, I presume, that the upkeep of a prisoner costs a hell of a lot more than $10/day. Specifically, the California Dept of Corrections quotes $133,000/year. https://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost
I'd have less of a problem with prisoners being paid a pittance for helping out if it weren't for how the spending-side of prison commissaries [0] and phone calls [1] are often unconscionably overpriced.
[0] https://theappeal.org/locked-in-priced-out-how-much-prison-c...
[1] https://www.vera.org/news/the-fcc-is-capping-outrageous-pris...
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#43Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. 90% of it is about extorting the population for funding for the courts and cops. If you can't afford a lawyer, they will provide you with a joke. And if you can afford a lawyer, now its just a question if you are willing to spend more on your lawyer than the state is hoping to extort from you. If you are, you will get…
> Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. and just like re healthcare, this is the rub of communicating about this: 90% (to pick a random number out of thin air) of hn's target demo has had perfect/sheltered lives and has never come into contact with the "law". so they believe all the political and institutional rhetoric around it. the other 10% know it's a…
I think the most inconvenient thing is actually that it’s both (largely) accidental and systematic.
If you go looking for the source of “evil” breaking these systems, you’ll surely find a few bad folks purposely fucking it up, but removing them is almost certainly not going to fix anything. The vast majority of these systems’ behavior (good or bad) is effectively not driven by individuals whatsoever.
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Slavery has existed for all of human history, and is sadly the natural state of things. It was stamped out by the British empire, a colonising power, because of the relentless campaigning of Christian moralists. Imprisonment is indeed a newer development. In the past they chopped off your hand and let fate deal with you, or they just executed you. Nobody was going to feed some peasant who couldn't even work. Imprison…
> is sadly the natural state of things
Sadly, the even-more-natural state of things involves the total extinction of all known forms of life and nothing but the cold vacuum of space.
So we should be very careful not to equate that particular kind of "natural" with other concepts like "unavoidable" or "acceptable".
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Slavery has existed for all of human history, and is sadly the natural state of things. It was stamped out by the British empire, a colonising power, because of the relentless campaigning of Christian moralists. Imprisonment is indeed a newer development. In the past they chopped off your hand and let fate deal with you, or they just executed you. Nobody was going to feed some peasant who couldn't even work. Imprison…
> Imprisonment is indeed a newer development.
Ancient Greece and Rome are "newer"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamertine_Prison was built in the 7th century BC.
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. and just like re healthcare, this is the rub of communicating about this: 90% (to pick a random number out of thin air) of hn's target demo has had perfect/sheltered lives and has never come into contact with the "law". so they believe all the political and institutional rhetoric around it. the other 10% know it's a…
I think the most inconvenient thing is actually that it’s both (largely) accidental and systematic. If you go looking for the source of “evil” breaking these systems, you’ll surely find a few bad folks purposely fucking it up, but removing them is almost certainly not going to fix anything. The vast majority of these systems’ behavior (good or bad) is effectively not driven by individuals whatsoever.
i wish people, before they commented on really really serious things, did a bit of reflection.
> effectively not driven by individuals whatsoever
the agency of individuals in totalitarian/authoritarian institutions has been examined/analyzed/written about at enormous length since the rise of fascism in the early 1900s. the short answer is you're wrong but i'm not going to try to convince you (you have to want to learn to be receptive). instead i recommend a book:
https://www.amazon.com/Eichmann-Jerusalem-Banality-Penguin-C...
EDIT: i'm being rate limited. to the guy below
> how even a system full of good intentions
you're just proving all of my points - you just can't fathom that the laws really were written with immoral intentions because "the law" is sacrosanct for you.
i note again: the 13th amendment abolished slavery except for in prisons. it's written explicitly in section 1 (no bad faith interpretation needed). please discuss for me the "good intentions" therein.
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#47Standing out in any way in a small, socially conservative community can have some pretty terrible consequences.
Can confirm. A friend of mine got death threats for reading the constitution aloud on the steps of town hall. This was not in Alabama. It was in the Massachusetts hill towns.
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Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the most inconvenient thing is actually that it’s both (largely) accidental and systematic. If you go looking for the source of “evil” breaking these systems, you’ll surely find a few bad folks purposely fucking it up, but removing them is almost certainly not going to fix anything. The vast majority of these systems’ behavior (good or bad) is effectively not driven by individuals whatsoever.
i wish people, before they commented on really really serious things, did a bit of reflection. > effectively not driven by individuals whatsoever the agency of individuals in totalitarian/authoritarian institutions has been examined/analyzed/written about at enormous length since the rise of fascism in the early 1900s. the short answer is you're wrong but i'm not going to try to convince you (you have to want to lear…
The vast majority of bad outcomes of big systems are not because they’re principally designed for evil and just lacking a few dissenters.
Most systems today are intended to produce outcomes that most people agree would be good, and they’re full of people trying to achieve those outcomes, and yet reliably failing to produce them.
There have been books written about this topic as well, but it’s not as flashy as comparing “every system that produces some bad results” to actual Nazis, I have to admit.
Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#49Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. and just like re healthcare, this is the rub of communicating about this: 90% (to pick a random number out of thin air) of hn's target demo has had perfect/sheltered lives and has never come into contact with the "law". so they believe all the political and institutional rhetoric around it. the other 10% know it's a…
I think the most inconvenient thing is actually that it’s both (largely) accidental and systematic. If you go looking for the source of “evil” breaking these systems, you’ll surely find a few bad folks purposely fucking it up, but removing them is almost certainly not going to fix anything. The vast majority of these systems’ behavior (good or bad) is effectively not driven by individuals whatsoever.
If good people can't run the system right the system is broken and good people ought to support its reform or replacement.