X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X • Hacker News Board

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#41

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:05 PM UTC

stone2020 wrote: post #11

tomstuart wrote: post #4

Imagine if Apple removes [the floppy drive] itself in the next version of [the Mac], or decides [wi-fi] is the future and gets rid of [the Ethernet port]?

Imagine if [fanboy] doesn't cherry pick from the last 20 years and talks about the [article].

Cherry pick? Apple has a long history of removing what most users don't use. RS-232, Centronix ("printer"), FireWire, VGA, Ethernet, and various other ports have all been dropped over time. Floppy (both 5.25" & 3.5"), CD, DVD, and probably other media (escaping me) support gone. Blu-ray in effect dropped before even included. Likewise, various software support has been eradicated over time as use dwindled to more-hassle-than-it's-worth status. When dropped, everything still was available those needing it, provided by easy/cheap add-ons & installs. Users do well to wean off HyperCard, X11, and other things which cling to a double-digit past.

Contrast that with the Dell box on my desk right now, which still has every physical port mentioned above, plus 2 PS/2 (!!!) plugs, an eSATA port, and an I-don't-know-what; the software running thereon (Windows) will _still_ run darned near everything I've accumulated over the last 30 years. ..._WHY_ do I want to run darned near everything I've accumulated over the last 30 years?

No wonder this two-cubic-foot boat anchor has a Geekbench score lower than a barely-there MacBook Air.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#42

Post by kapuzineralex » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:05 PM UTC

jwbaker wrote: post #38

xutopia wrote: post #24

What I find disturbing here is the expectation that they would include it. I was speaking to a Microsoft evangelist two years ago and asked him why it took them so long to release a new version of Windows. He essentially told me that Microsoft does the best legacy support in the world and wanted to ensure that every single piece of important software could still be installed and work with the new version. He also exp…

That certainly does not justify the installer removing X11 from a perfectly working Mac.

+1. Next time they remove Dropbox because it might be a conflict of interest with iCloud. And then...

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#43

Post by untog » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:06 PM UTC

tomstuart wrote: post #4

Imagine if Apple removes [the floppy drive] itself in the next version of [the Mac], or decides [wi-fi] is the future and gets rid of [the Ethernet port]?

Removing the floppy drive and ethernet ports have clear and straightforward benefits, though. Removing software, less so.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#44

Post by jws » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:06 PM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #18

The X11 that Apple provided with OS X was nothing but a snapshot of whatever XQuartz version was current when that version of OS X went GM. In other words, we are now getting the exact same product, but with more timely updates. It takes a special brand of cluelessness to see that as a bad thing.

It's a good thing. X11 has joined Flash and Java in the ranks of "stuff third parties maintain".

RSS removal is a different animal. Statistically speaking, no one used it (except you and me of course) but 10 minutes of app shopping and I've got a better solution running. Much better.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#45

Post by bradleyland » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:07 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #29

leephillips wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good argument for Apple not including their own version of x11. But the author was most anguished that they removed an installation of x11 that he was depending on.

Did all the config go as well? The dotfiles? Did the author try installing the recommended X11 over the top to see if the old configs were picked up?

My experience: My current OS install dates back to Leopard, which was installed on my MacBook Pro back when I purchased it in 2009. I've upgraded to each subsequent OS X release since then, and maintained a development environment utilizing X11 (for gnuplot) the entire time.

It is my understanding that the X11 included with OS X was actually a snapshot of XQuartz at the time of OS release, so the config data is in line with what XQuartz expects. In the Unixy bits, OS X upgrades are a lot like other Unix-like operating systems in that package operations remove the application, but not the configuration.

After installing XQuartz, gnuplot continues to run just like it did under previous versions of OS X. I simply ran the XQuartz installer and got back to work.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#46

Post by mikeash » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:07 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #39

I wonder if Apple risks losing its technical (i.e. programmer) users. If OS X stops feeling like a UNIX-like OS to technical users, and they move away, OS X may receive less attention from developers. And that won't be good for the platform.

As long as it's possible to install the technical apps, I don't really care whether they ship with the system. I don't imagine many technical users would care, although I could be wrong. You never got a compiler with Mac OS X without downloading and installing one separately, and many other tools people like to use have to be downloaded separately too.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#47

Post by acdha » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:08 PM UTC

> The Terminal was always limited, copy and pasting text in it was non standard, there was no default repository for ports or applications. And no matter how many cores or how much RAM I threw at it, it would beachball when copying and pasting from one terminal to another using the default app on Mac OS X.

I stopped taking the author seriously around this point: the lack of package management outside of the App Store is a serious problem but the other two distractions are signs that he's either misconfigured his system or is doing something crazy like pasting data files rather than using pbcopy / pbpaste.

For long-time users, this is a minor change and actually a good move: there were only a couple of releases where we didn't have to install XQuartz anyway to get performance or features which weren't available in the shipped version. Since this affected only a very, very small number of generally more technical Mac users I'm not surprised that Apple is moving it back outside of the default release cycle.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#48

Post by danbee » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:08 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #27

For me, OS X has increasingly become too difficult for use in development. For a while there, it was the best, especially with tools like homebrew. But, it's just become too much of a headache. Too often, I find myself wasting hours trying to get over small OSS compatibility hurdles. More and more, I've been finding myself picking up my 'other' laptop, firing up VirtualBox, and running Linux straight. I do miss the b…

Couldn't you just run VirtualBox on your MacBook Pro?

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#49

Post by mikeash » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:09 PM UTC

jwbaker wrote: post #37

I guess there's nobody left at Apple who believed in the spirit of this advertisement: http://www4.macnn.com/macnn/articles/unixad.jpg Now that the Apple no longer needs to be saved by dorks, the dorks are being thrown overboard.

That ad is from 2002. X11 didn't ship with Mac OS X until 2003. Either they never believed in the spirit of that advertisement and the whole thing was a sham, or built-in X11 support isn't actually necessary for it.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#50

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 3:10 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #39

I wonder if Apple risks losing its technical (i.e. programmer) users. If OS X stops feeling like a UNIX-like OS to technical users, and they move away, OS X may receive less attention from developers. And that won't be good for the platform.

Apple went to great lengths to get OS X validated as a full-on UNIX. To what degree do developers in general confuse UNIX itself with good-riddance mis-associations therewith which cause unnecessary friction against modern development? (Can we drop vi already? fine paradigm unto itself, but counter to any other 21st-century UI...)