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Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

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Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#41

Post by stalfosknight »

amarcheschi wrote: post #39
stalfosknight wrote: post #36

Why must the Europeans be like this? Why do they insist on fucking with a free and open internet instead of addressing the apparently unmet demand that is fueling a black market?

Please, do not confuse Europeans with the entities taking such actions. I know of nobody supporting such draconian measures. However, the government, the football league and the guys taking decisions at agcom (which in the past has been a serious and respected agency for the battle he took with tech companies) are, quite apparently, banding together to make the football league will become reality above anything else

While I generally agree that one should not conflate private individuals with the actions of their government, I do think it is fair to hold people who live in democracies responsible in a general or aggregate sense for the actions of their elected governments.

In other words, I think it is fair to say that Italy pulls shit like this because enough Italian voters want it to happen or otherwise let it happen.

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#42

Post by nashashmi »

rvnx wrote: post #30
AdrianB1 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The payment is done, money is at Cloudflare in a US bank, Cloudflare takes it and move it somewhere else. How do they seize it? The money is gone and it's not coming back.

It's more simple, imagine Cloudflare is used to show pedophile content, and refuses to remove it. Then the solution is to cut access to Cloudflare. That's the logic here. It's not about whether they have offices or not, but whether they are distributing content to users in Italy. There is always a local relay or ISP in Italy that offers access to Cloudflare, and this relay can be coerced into blocking Cloudflare. Of…

Connections to foreign computers are not subjected to regulation currently.

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#43

Post by miki123211 »

djoldman wrote: post #7

> This decision follows a similar case against Internet backbone firm Cloudflare. In January, the Court of Milan found that Cloudflare's CDN, DNS server, and WARP VPN were facilitating piracy. The court threatened Cloudflare with fines of up to 10,000 euros per day if it did not begin blocking the sites. I'm always curious about jurisdiction on this stuff. If Cloudflare had no physical machines, employees, and proper…

The point of Cloudflare is that it's widely available and that your customers can connect to it. Italy could block Cloudflare access to Cloudflare for its citizens, which would make non-italian CF customers who have users in Italy extremely unhappy.

Imagine an American SaaS company that uses Cloudflare CDN to distribute their assets and tunnels their traffic through CF for DoS mitigation. That company has paying customers in Italy. If Cloudflare gets blocked, that company's software no longer works in that country. They have a choice between switching to a different provider (which will make Cloudflare lose money) and telling their Italian customers to go away (which they don't want to do for obvious reasons).

Considering how much infra actually relies on CF, Whether the Italian government would actually fight that fight is a different matter entirely. Sometimes centralization is a good thing.

IMO, a far more interesting question is what would happen if Italy asked CF to block some content worldwide.

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#44

Post by amarcheschi »

stalfosknight wrote: post #41
amarcheschi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, do not confuse Europeans with the entities taking such actions. I know of nobody supporting such draconian measures. However, the government, the football league and the guys taking decisions at agcom (which in the past has been a serious and respected agency for the battle he took with tech companies) are, quite apparently, banding together to make the football league will become reality above anything else

While I generally agree that one should not conflate private individuals with the actions of their government, I do think it is fair to hold people who live in democracies responsible in a general or aggregate sense for the actions of their elected governments. In other words, I think it is fair to say that Italy pulls shit like this because enough Italian voters want it to happen or otherwise let it happen.

Heh, I partially agree with general politics, however actions like this are so distant from the average Joe that the chances are they do not even know the pros and cons of similar actions. One might argue that they can get informed, but once you get into technicalities like this, one should spend its entire free time getting informed on similar issues. I see a lack of general discourse about this - in the past it happened to have some Google drive urls blocked if I'm not wrong - because it is not perceived as an issue unless something big happens that (such as drive not working)

You also have to add the fact that this issue goes relatively "unnoticed" compared to other issues that are perceived as much more important

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#45

Post by crote »

xxmarkuski wrote: post #27
geoffpado wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how is DoH supposed to help when the resolver itself is being asked to return bad results? DoH makes sense if something is MITM-ing your DNS requests, but it sounds in this case that Google is being asked to just straight-up return bad results?

DNSSEC is the actual solution, providing authenticity and integrity for DNS records. The DNS client can verify that the received DNS response is what the zone admin intended. Additional records (NSEC / NSEC3) are used to provide a proof of non-existence, preventing suppression from a mitm attacker. But if your government is mitming you, you don't want them to see you use DNSSEC. DoH is useful in that case, because a…

DNSSEC isn't going to prevent suppression, it just makes it detectable. Cloudflare is still going to send you a doctored record - which will fail verification. But that doesn't magically give you an undoctored record, unfortunately.

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#46

Post by ur-whale »

If there is ONE thing that needs to be decentralized RTFN, it is DNS.

It's taking time, but the thugs in charge in various countries are slowly coming to realize that the easiest place to apply censorship is DNS because of its antiquated design and pervasiveness.

One: you should be able to freely choose or name-to-IP-translation provider.

Two: modern DNS should run on top of a trustless blockchain infrastructure.

Namecoin was a very nice initial attempt, it's really sad it never took off.

[EDIT]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namecoin

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#48

Post by drpossum »

amarcheschi wrote: post #39
stalfosknight wrote: post #36

Why must the Europeans be like this? Why do they insist on fucking with a free and open internet instead of addressing the apparently unmet demand that is fueling a black market?

Please, do not confuse Europeans with the entities taking such actions. I know of nobody supporting such draconian measures. However, the government, the football league and the guys taking decisions at agcom (which in the past has been a serious and respected agency for the battle he took with tech companies) are, quite apparently, banding together to make the football league will become reality above anything else

[flagged]

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#49

Post by ajsnigrutin »

miki123211 wrote: post #43
djoldman wrote: post #7

> This decision follows a similar case against Internet backbone firm Cloudflare. In January, the Court of Milan found that Cloudflare's CDN, DNS server, and WARP VPN were facilitating piracy. The court threatened Cloudflare with fines of up to 10,000 euros per day if it did not begin blocking the sites. I'm always curious about jurisdiction on this stuff. If Cloudflare had no physical machines, employees, and proper…

The point of Cloudflare is that it's widely available and that your customers can connect to it. Italy could block Cloudflare access to Cloudflare for its citizens, which would make non-italian CF customers who have users in Italy extremely unhappy. Imagine an American SaaS company that uses Cloudflare CDN to distribute their assets and tunnels their traffic through CF for DoS mitigation. That company has paying cust…

CF blocking a whole country like this would be interesting... basically half the internet would stop working, probably a bunch of italian government stuff too, and people would hopefully blame the government, because i'm pretty sure there are almost zero italian voters who wanted this from their representatives.

Sadly, companies bow down instead of just risk it once.

Re: Italy demands Google poison DNS under strict Piracy Shield law

#50

Post by amarcheschi »

drpossum wrote: post #48
amarcheschi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, do not confuse Europeans with the entities taking such actions. I know of nobody supporting such draconian measures. However, the government, the football league and the guys taking decisions at agcom (which in the past has been a serious and respected agency for the battle he took with tech companies) are, quite apparently, banding together to make the football league will become reality above anything else

[flagged]

I am not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying. Anyway.

What I am against is equating leader's behavior and people's behavior. It's not a nazi Germany situation where the people supported this action, it's a situation where most people don't know about it, and those who know are probably against it. It's such a minor issue that until something very big will happen and go on the news, nobody will care about it since people are mostly trying to make a living without much thought about what happens outside their garden

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