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We Should Own the Economy

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Re: We Should Own the Economy

#41

Post by Muromec »

pyrale wrote: post #36
Muromec wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the risk of falling on the deaf ears, but where from comes the idea that communism is the opposite (or less of) capitalism and not an unattainable global maximum of it instead? Planned economy as practiced by all vertically integrated monopolies may be the opposite of free market and the biggest attempt at communism was just that, but it's not the core idea of it.

> I understand the risk of falling on the deaf ears Always good to cast yourself as unheard in your first sentence. > where from comes the idea that communism is the opposite (or less of) capitalism No one said they're opposite, but no one reasonably claims they're compatible. Communists, quite simply, want means of production to be collectively owned. There's a lot of debate among communists about what collective me…

>There's a lot of debate among communists about what collective means, but no one reasonably claims that collective means "private ownership".

I dunno about the communists, but to me everybody owning shares of the company they work for sounds like collective ownership of the means of production. We could maybe argue about the threshold around which it becomes or stops being literal communism, because I don't this important KPI of ours in the article.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#42

Post by diggan »

Muromec wrote: post #35
diggan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to be the one, but did you actually read the article? Author is talking about "vision for the future of capitalism", "create an elevated vision for capitalism", and "project about creating more owners", so if anything it's like neo-capitalism or something, nowhere near communism if you have proper understanding of the concept.

You can make another step forward to reduce overheard and put all the shares of those owners into a holding company, vote for the managing person of it and you will pretty much get soviet union. The rest of the soviet union you will have to grow in process of such transformations to deal with marginal ill effects of it.

If you're somehow under the belief that the Soviet Union was an implementation of communism, I'm sad to inform you it wasn't. The Soviet Union was run by the state, not the workers, there was a strict class structure in place, instead of a classless society and it was controlled in a top-down authoritarian manner, not by empowering the workers.

Having a manager as you describe is quite explicitly the opposite than what communism argues for.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#43

Post by pupppet »

ActorNightly wrote: post #23

>If we don’t do something about it we could lose democracy. I love how people are still pretending like this didn't happen already. If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken. But as an aside, the issue isn't necessarily the wealth inequality, its the fact that the average person in US enjoys a relatively good life. This is why most of US didn't show up to vote in 2024. This create…

>I love how people are still pretending like this didn't happen already. If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken.

My guess- US coordinates with China on the timing of Taiwan's takeover. Trump then argues he can't very well step down in the middle of a war.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#44

Post by ActorNightly »

slibhb wrote: post #31
ActorNightly wrote: post #23

>If we don’t do something about it we could lose democracy. I love how people are still pretending like this didn't happen already. If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken. But as an aside, the issue isn't necessarily the wealth inequality, its the fact that the average person in US enjoys a relatively good life. This is why most of US didn't show up to vote in 2024. This create…

> If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken. Care to make it interesting?

I mean, if I knew you in person, Id probably take 70:30 odds on a bet that there wouldn't be a fair election in 2028. Online its pretty pointless, as I can fake any evidence of me betting one way or another, and so can you.

Even then, if I win, the money is going to be pointless as US dollar will tank hard.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#45

Post by Muromec »

diggan wrote: post #42
Muromec wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make another step forward to reduce overheard and put all the shares of those owners into a holding company, vote for the managing person of it and you will pretty much get soviet union. The rest of the soviet union you will have to grow in process of such transformations to deal with marginal ill effects of it.

If you're somehow under the belief that the Soviet Union was an implementation of communism, I'm sad to inform you it wasn't. The Soviet Union was run by the state, not the workers, there was a strict class structure in place, instead of a classless society and it was controlled in a top-down authoritarian manner, not by empowering the workers. Having a manager as you describe is quite explicitly the opposite than wh…

You don't have to tell me, I have this place stamped on my id card in a birth place field. I know the lore and I've seen the ugly stuff too.

It's not the point what soviet union was -- the point is it's one of the practical things you get to when trying to achieve the idea.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#46

Post by mugwumprk »

slibhb wrote: post #27
mugwumprk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If the 100 richest Americans decided who was president, it would be someone like Bill Gates or Michael Bloomberg -- not Donald Trump." That's an interesting question. I haven't seen a poll of the richest US citizens. Which is odd, considering our general obsession with wealth. I suspect that, between Harris and Trump, the 100 richest would go for Trump.

I probably shouldn't have chosen 100. But, say, the top 1%, 5%, or 10% -- I think would go for a moderate liberal over someone like Trump. Of course, Harris outspent Trump considerably which is another piece of evidence against the whole "money owns politics" story.

It's a testable theory. I personally would love to see a poll that breaks down support by wealth. But of course, that's not enough. The presidential winner isn't the person who gets the most votes, it's the person who gets the majority of the majority of states. So we'd need a breakdown on wealth & residency to get an accurate view. This is important, because the top 10% in Alabama probably wouldn't be in the top 10% in New Jersey.

No idea who they'd support. But if I was a gambling man I'd put my money on Trump in that poll as well.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#47

Post by diggan »

Muromec wrote: post #45
diggan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're somehow under the belief that the Soviet Union was an implementation of communism, I'm sad to inform you it wasn't. The Soviet Union was run by the state, not the workers, there was a strict class structure in place, instead of a classless society and it was controlled in a top-down authoritarian manner, not by empowering the workers. Having a manager as you describe is quite explicitly the opposite than wh…

You don't have to tell me, I have this place stamped on my id card in a birth place field. I know the lore and I've seen the ugly stuff too. It's not the point what soviet union was -- the point is it's one of the practical things you get to when trying to achieve the idea.

> You don't have to tell me

You're kind of the person who went off-topic here. Parent's point was that what's suggested in the article is communism, then you start involving the Soviet Union for some reason, although it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#48

Post by [deleted] »

Muromec wrote: post #37
ActorNightly wrote: post #23

>If we don’t do something about it we could lose democracy. I love how people are still pretending like this didn't happen already. If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken. But as an aside, the issue isn't necessarily the wealth inequality, its the fact that the average person in US enjoys a relatively good life. This is why most of US didn't show up to vote in 2024. This create…

Oh, you will have election a-okay, it's not that modern dictatorships don't care to do the dance. The problem is the deep suspicion of who will win them forming 4 years in advance.

[deleted]

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#49

Post by Gryffex »

Muromec wrote: post #37
ActorNightly wrote: post #23

>If we don’t do something about it we could lose democracy. I love how people are still pretending like this didn't happen already. If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken. But as an aside, the issue isn't necessarily the wealth inequality, its the fact that the average person in US enjoys a relatively good life. This is why most of US didn't show up to vote in 2024. This create…

Oh, you will have election a-okay, it's not that modern dictatorships don't care to do the dance. The problem is the deep suspicion of who will win them forming 4 years in advance.

Fuck no. The amount of hardness is owning the economy is too much.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#50

Post by nh23423fefe »

ActorNightly wrote: post #44
slibhb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think there are going to be elections in 2028, you are gravely mistaken. Care to make it interesting?

I mean, if I knew you in person, Id probably take 70:30 odds on a bet that there wouldn't be a fair election in 2028. Online its pretty pointless, as I can fake any evidence of me betting one way or another, and so can you. Even then, if I win, the money is going to be pointless as US dollar will tank hard.

This is what conviction in your beliefs looks like.
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