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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#41

Post by foota »

film42 wrote: post #11

I think unions need to work on their marketing. I resonate with all of these problems, but the "fixes" sound like a politician saying, "elect me and I'll solve your problems." What's the A+ example out there of a unionized engineering team that has been able to find a great work-life balance, great benefits, and a fun product development life-cycle that is profitable or clearly on its way to profitability? Show me th…

I think a lot of people might consider taking a pay cut in return for an easier tech job. In theory working in an equally profitable company by lowering stress and comp for everyone and hiring more seems possible, but I'm not certain that it'd work out in practice because of increased coordination overhead etc.,.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#42

Post by swatcoder »

protonbob wrote: post #20

The author seems to think that everybody works this way. In reality, many of us work 40-45 hour weeks with no on call and low amounts of meetings. These jobs are in the boring (military, banking, insurance etc) sectors but I make a good, not great, living.

The author is clear that they're talking about "billion dollar tech companies" for an audience of those people called to them.

You're right that these are not the only place that people can write software and that many of us have recognized for a very long while that these are noxious places to write software, or that they were eventually going to become so.

Billion dollar FAANGs and their smaller, cargo culting, shadows represent a certain sector with a certain work atmosphere, much as game development companies and hedge/trading firms do. 15 years ago, during the ascent of Facebook and Google, this atmosphere was different than it is now -- innovative and luxurious and inviting -- and some people still look see them through the lens of the past, but they're much larger machines now, with different priorities and incentive structures, and as the author notes, those are mostly not aligned with sustainable, satisfying, or healthy environments for most of the engineers who've found themselves inside of them.

Like finance, they pay extremely well, and like games, they can make you feel like you're part of something you can brag about at a dinner party, but also like both, they have little concern about chewing you up for as long as you're willing to bear it.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#43

Post by sophacles »

film42 wrote: post #11

I think unions need to work on their marketing. I resonate with all of these problems, but the "fixes" sound like a politician saying, "elect me and I'll solve your problems." What's the A+ example out there of a unionized engineering team that has been able to find a great work-life balance, great benefits, and a fun product development life-cycle that is profitable or clearly on its way to profitability? Show me th…

Seems like a good time to unionize is when you don't need it, while the job is good. Get the union in place and work through issues like on-call, laying out actual articulable and measurable performance targets for review time, work-life balance rules and other "small" things while the job is good. That way when the money grubbing starts, the true horror-show policies are attempted, etc - you have an established union and a better bargaining position. Better than waiting until the job is shit and having to fight an uphill battle all the way.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#44

Post by jrussino »

sfpotter wrote: post #17
film42 wrote: post #11

I think unions need to work on their marketing. I resonate with all of these problems, but the "fixes" sound like a politician saying, "elect me and I'll solve your problems." What's the A+ example out there of a unionized engineering team that has been able to find a great work-life balance, great benefits, and a fun product development life-cycle that is profitable or clearly on its way to profitability? Show me th…

[flagged]

> If you don't see how this can be useful, that's a failure of imagination on your part.

I too can sometimes find it quite frustrating when a thing that seems like a good idea to me is rejected by other people, especially when that rejection seems to come after very little consideration.

But if you want people to adopt a view similar to yours, and they haven't yet, I think this sort of attitude is counterproductive. I think the person you replied to is right about there being a marketing problem here. If there's a genuinely good idea, and its acceptance/adoption is disproportionately low, it must be because people aren't seeing its value. Maybe that's because they haven't been exposed to it, maybe it's because they lack the curiosity or motivation to understand it, maybe it's because they've been misinformed or propagandized against it... either way, if you care about increasing adoption there's really no other choice than to try to actively persuade people.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#45

Post by goostavos »

protonbob wrote: post #20

The author seems to think that everybody works this way. In reality, many of us work 40-45 hour weeks with no on call and low amounts of meetings. These jobs are in the boring (military, banking, insurance etc) sectors but I make a good, not great, living.

I work at a FANG. Senior SDE. I don't have slack on my phone. I don't read emails (unless someone tells me out of band that one needs a response). Once I close this laptop work is dead to me until the following day.

You pick and choose your own involvement. I'm "passionate" about the job. I consider it a craft and a lifelong pursuit. I'm writing a book on the topic. But the job is just a job. I'm here because they give me money. That's where my obligation ends. I do have to do oncall rotations, and it sucks, but I mark that up to "what the money is for."

My only point being, one of these rants makes it to the front page every few months. "Unionize" gets thrown around. People complain as though it must be done. I've only worked 2 legit 80 weeks in my life. I decided I didn't like it, so I stopped doing it.

That means I cannot compete inside of this place with the people that work non-stop, live on slack, and devote their lives to their job. And that's OK. They can have the Top Tier rating and the salary that comes with it. I prefer to just make my little slice of the world good during the hours that I'm paid to do it. Then I go do something else.

Balance is a choice.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#46

Post by geodel »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #21
film42 wrote: post #11

I think unions need to work on their marketing. I resonate with all of these problems, but the "fixes" sound like a politician saying, "elect me and I'll solve your problems." What's the A+ example out there of a unionized engineering team that has been able to find a great work-life balance, great benefits, and a fun product development life-cycle that is profitable or clearly on its way to profitability? Show me th…

The issue is the idea that there’s something that can magically solve all your problems. If you believe in panaceas, everything will disappoint you. Unions are a tool , and tools have tradeoffs. They will be able to solve some of your problems — most importantly, the power imbalance between employer and employee — and introduce new ones you didn’t have before. The bet is that if we collectively use unions correctly,…

> The bet is that if we collectively use unions correctly,

This sounds awfully similar to when people were holding their iPhones wrong.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#47

Post by nimih »

deedubaya wrote: post #26

Burnout? Yes. Overwork? Maybe. Unionize? Eh… The post reeks of privilege. Go work a manual labor job outside in the sun for a few weeks and tell me how bad tech employees have it. Most of non-tech America is not empathetic to our plights. They’ll probably cheer on the offshoring of our jobs.

On the other hand, your post "rinks" of a general ignorance of labor history in the US, where unions have (at least, historically) been able to support each other across industries and facilitate class solidarity amongst workers. Perhaps if you showed up to some picket lines in your city and worked to build connections with your fellow workers by providing support in their struggles, you'd find that they're supportive of yours in return.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#48

Post by test098 »

film42 wrote: post #35
jakelazaroff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is the idea that there’s something that can magically solve all your problems. If you believe in panaceas, everything will disappoint you. Unions are a tool , and tools have tradeoffs. They will be able to solve some of your problems — most importantly, the power imbalance between employer and employee — and introduce new ones you didn’t have before. The bet is that if we collectively use unions correctly,…

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St...

pretty much every team in blue collar industries which have been able to negotiate better working conditions, better pay, and more time off.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#50

Post by rglover »

debacle wrote: post #27
rglover wrote: post #9

The ideal is to encourage developers to start their own small businesses and support each other by being customers. That, and when you find success/profitability, don't sell to a big tech nightmare or PE—just run the business. The "machine" is a natural side-effect of mega corporations and creating unions will just encourage more creativity around stealing your soul or getting rid of your entirely.

I never worked harder in my life than when I worked for myself.

Certainly, but it's far more rewarding than being grist for the mill. You can spend your entire life doing less-hard work, only to wake up at 80 and have nothing to show for it but a bank account that you can't take with you.

Building your own thing is a rough go (13 years deep myself), but hell if I don't wake up most days with a shit eating grin on my face.

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