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Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

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Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#41

Post by pclmulqdq »

bo1024 wrote: post #40
hkt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've actually cracked PGP, and email is fine, especially between self hosters and anyone using chatmail. I've been using it for years: Delta really, really works.

Can you clarify "cracked"?

PGP has been cracked when you use it with automation in that you can steal keys slowly by relying on the meta-behavior of systems around PGP. A classic attack here is timing how long it takes for a PGP-based automated system to reject your messages.

PGP is intended for the classic "used by a human to encrypt emails manually" flow and is actually insecure if you automate around it.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#42

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 »

wisienkas wrote: post #38
jasode wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI". WhatsApp lets people find each other with phone numbers instead email addresses. This has a profound difference in real-world usability because it decreases friction . Before WhatsApp, people texted each other using cell companies' SMS servi…

I mean you could simply setup a registry of Aliases for emails to achieve the same effect? On the same note, isn't phone numbers being more sensitive information than email nowadays, hence you might not want to share it.

That ship seems to have largely sailed and the trend will be hard to reverse given how cell number has started to become all-purpose ID number tracker.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#43

Post by sras-me »

jasode wrote: post #28
sras-me wrote: post #16

In a sensible world, we would be using this, instead of whatsapp. It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI".

>It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI". WhatsApp lets people find each other with phone numbers instead email addresses. This has a profound difference in real-world usability because it decreases friction . Before WhatsApp, people texted each other using cell companies' SMS servi…

>both people already had each others' phone number in their smartphone's address book...

Look if it is saved in the smartphone's address book, why does it matter if it is email or a phone number. I bet that people don't actually memorize even the phone numbers of people close to them these days.

>Why did Person A (who already had an email address) send a SMS text to Person B (who also already had an email address) to chat?!?

I think it is because we didn't have near universal internet access in smartphones for a long time. If Whatsapp (or something like that) was a little bit late to appear, and the tech crowd was actually a bit more smarter, things like Delta Chat had a much better chance to be in Whatsapps current place.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#44

Post by INTPenis »

I wish I could send a one-time link to my father where we could play chess against each other by re-visiting the same link.

The e-mail part made me think of this. I have no use for an e-mail based chat but an online chess game that's easy to use without registration would be cool. He's 82 and he can't use complex sites.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#45

Post by lxgr »

jasode wrote: post #28
sras-me wrote: post #16

In a sensible world, we would be using this, instead of whatsapp. It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI".

>It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI". WhatsApp lets people find each other with phone numbers instead email addresses. This has a profound difference in real-world usability because it decreases friction . Before WhatsApp, people texted each other using cell companies' SMS servi…

> Why did Person A (who already had an email address) send a SMS text to Person B (who also already had an email address) to chat?!?

Arguably primarily because they want to chat with them and not email them. The two have vastly different UX beyond just contact discovery.

Before WhatsApp there were ICQ (also number-based!), MSN, Skype... WhatsApp's main contribution over these was indeed using phone numbers and contacts access for automated contact discovery, but I don't think it makes sense at all to characterize it as a usability improvement on email.

Another case in point: iMessage supports email addresses as identifiers too. I don't even have my phone number on there because I consider it a strictly inferior identifier (it changes every time I move countries, I lose it if payments to my operator ever lapse, unlike a TLD I have no way of owning it independently from a phone plan etc.)

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#46

Post by darthrupert »

jasode wrote: post #28
sras-me wrote: post #16

In a sensible world, we would be using this, instead of whatsapp. It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI".

>It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI". WhatsApp lets people find each other with phone numbers instead email addresses. This has a profound difference in real-world usability because it decreases friction . Before WhatsApp, people texted each other using cell companies' SMS servi…

Email address is a *far* better identifier than a random string of numbers though. The only reason why phone number discoverability works better is because everyone keeps being in that ancient world.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#47

Post by lxgr »

INTPenis wrote: post #44

I wish I could send a one-time link to my father where we could play chess against each other by re-visiting the same link. The e-mail part made me think of this. I have no use for an e-mail based chat but an online chess game that's easy to use without registration would be cool. He's 82 and he can't use complex sites.

> an online chess game that's easy to use without registration would be cool

Lichess lets you play without registration, I believe (or at least one player; not sure if both sides can be anonymous).

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#48

Post by darthrupert »

rahen wrote: post #6

On the positive side, the use of P2P and IMAP makes censorship difficult, which is a strong advantage in authoritarian regimes. However this comes with serious trade-offs. PGP lacks forward secrecy: if a key leaks, all past messages can be decrypted. Also IMAP offers no metadata privacy, anyone can see who you email and how often. Signal and WhatsApp are likely a step ahead in terms of privacy with their double ratch…

WhatsApp obviously cannot be trusted for message privacy for the simple reason that Meta paid gazillion bucks for it. I don't understand why people need more evidence beyond that.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#49

Post by lxgr »

sras-me wrote: post #16

In a sensible world, we would be using this, instead of whatsapp. It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI".

No, if anything we'd be using XMPP or Matrix.

Email is the completely wrong protocol choice for instant messaging. It's just a completely different use case. You wouldn't send a letter to the fire department if your house is on fire either.

Re: Delta Chat – Email Based PGP Encrypted Chat

#50

Post by lxgr »

drpossum wrote: post #22
sras-me wrote: post #16

In a sensible world, we would be using this, instead of whatsapp. It is amazing that even really a vast majority of, even technical people, not once stopped and looked at whatsapp, and said "Wait, e-mail can do this, we just need a pretty UI".

To say nothing of the fact that most people are not running their own email servers so that messaging is going to reside in places they don't own and the fact that relays get to read about everything exacerbating that problem, so you cannot really expect forward secrecy: Does this solve all the other problems with encrypted email, which is not widely used for a reason? Here's a discussion https://www.latacora.com/blo…

> most people are not running their own email servers

I honestly don't care about what the people I communicate with do, as long as I have the capability to at least own my persistent identifier (i.e. my TLD).

Just having that capability exerts just the right type of pressure on large service providers to maintain a baseline quality of service, regardless of whether the majority actually makes use of it or not, just like phone number portability has done in that domain.

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