Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

phoronix.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 50 posts

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#41

Post by shakezooola »

4bpp wrote: post #16
rowanG077 wrote: post #7

What's so wrong about the thin blue line statement? I didn't know about this phrase before so I read the wiki page. Isn't the usage correct? Kernel maintainers need to ensure the kernel code doesn't become a unmaintainable ball of mud.

The statement's recent place in the public consciousness is largely because it was used as a pro-police slogan against the BLM/"police abolition" movement in the US. The Rust community, being overwhelmingly progressive, is already sensitive about supposed dogwhistles, as well as words that cause them negative associations, in computing (in the vein of "master"->"main" renamings); having that slogan used as a metaphor…

I like and use Rust as a language but if you look at the way the foundation and community manages itself maybe it indeed would be best to keep it out of the kernel if this childish behavior comes with it.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#42

Post by shakezooola »

darthrupert wrote: post #37

Woke (modern, post 2010-version) looks like a psyops campaign, designed to destroy the social cohesion of western societies. Looking at what has happened since 2010 and how the vibe has changed, it seems to have been extremely successful. It started soon after Russia's demands around European security were denied, and it initially spread from the places where Russia historically had most support: universities.

Wait so Russia made this person a primadonna? That sounds like a psyop too.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#43

Post by steveklabnik »

hitekker wrote: post #36
aftbit wrote: post #29

Why are the Rust people so dramatic?

From https://www.phoronix.com/news/Karol-Herbst-Nouveau-No , Karol Herbst is the maintainer of https://docs.mesa3d.org/rusticl.html which is written in Rust. He also contributes to Asahi Linux, and is apparently good friends with Hector Martin. It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.

> It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.

I don't think that's what's happening here.

A lot of the rhetoric around all of these situations has a framing of "Rust people" coming into the kernel, and then getting into fights with "Kernel people." It's often combined with various stereotypes of each group, that the Rust folks are younger, less experienced, that the kernel folks have been around the block a few times, etc.

But that framing just isn't the case. The people involved are both: they've been working on the kernel for a long time, and then want to use Rust to improve it.

So if you read your parent very literally, sure. But if you read it within this context, people are not saying that he doesn't write Rust code, they're saying that this idea of "Rust people" is irrelevant to what's going on.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#44

Post by 4bpp »

Narishma wrote: post #35
4bpp wrote: post #13

It's as predictable as it is concerning how much the Rust community has hitched its wagon to the US progressive movement. Is this an attempt to remove an adversary in an engineering debate by appealing to a political alliance? Or an attempt to remove a political adversary by appealing to engineering arguments? Either way, both politics and engineering are bound to suffer for it.

This has nothing to do with Rust.

How does it not? His resignation is a direct reaction to the circumstances surrounding the resignation of a core Rust-in-the-kernel personality over an argument about Rust in the kernel, and as the article points out his primary area of activity is another project (Rusticl) to introduce Rust into core Linux infrastructure (Mesa).

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#45

Post by Narishma »

4bpp wrote: post #44
Narishma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with Rust.

How does it not? His resignation is a direct reaction to the circumstances surrounding the resignation of a core Rust-in-the-kernel personality over an argument about Rust in the kernel, and as the article points out his primary area of activity is another project (Rusticl) to introduce Rust into core Linux infrastructure (Mesa).

Yes, but this person is not involved with Rust for Linux.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#46

Post by afr0ck »

steveklabnik wrote: post #43
hitekker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.phoronix.com/news/Karol-Herbst-Nouveau-No , Karol Herbst is the maintainer of https://docs.mesa3d.org/rusticl.html which is written in Rust. He also contributes to Asahi Linux, and is apparently good friends with Hector Martin. It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.

> It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust. I don't think that's what's happening here. A lot of the rhetoric around all of these situations has a framing of "Rust people" coming into the kernel, and then getting into fights with "Kernel people." It's often combined with various stereotypes of each group, that the Rust folks are younger, less experienced, that the kernel folks have been around the…

All of this drama is coming from the Rust email thread. Please, explain to me how this is irrelevant? I have nothing against Rust in the kernel, but Rust people are definitely dramatic.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#47

Post by anonfordays »

If comments as benign as "thin blue line" causes fragile entryist/activists to flee, I say Ted and the kernel team are doing the right thing. Projects as critical as the Linux kernel shouldn't be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, nor should they be platforms for proselytizing. Herbst and others like him leave long paths of destruction in their wake. Lots of projects have been turned upsidedown by the drama they seem to bring with them everywhere. The salient point is contributors need to be more than "drive by" submitters for their pet projects. This isn't specific to Rust in the kernel, look at how much of an uphill battle bcachefs was/is.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#48

Post by isaacfrond »

christophilus wrote: post #33
4bpp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...except I figure that at least in the US (where most of the people who can exert pressure on Linux development are located), the phrase's use in this capacity is actually fairly widely known. (It even takes up a significant part of the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line ) It seems more likely to me that he used it out of a lack of political savvy than out of an excess of it, and that the p…

I’m from the US. I had no idea “the thin blue line” carried any negative baggage with it. Though to be fair, I tend to assume that everything has baggage with someone somewhere, since I’ve worked with people (middle aged white men, to be clear) who managed to be offended on other people’s behalf with nearly anything I said. For example, I never learned how to refer to women: saying any of ladies, girls, guys, or wome…

The secret is not to refer to woman or man. They are all persons, and the gender they have, has nothing to do with their qualifications or fitness for the job.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#49

Post by account42 »

Fidelix wrote: post #3

> The moment I made up my mind about this was reading the following words written by a maintainer within the kernel community: > "we are the thin blue line" > This isn't okay. This isn't creating an inclusive environment. This isn't okay with the current political situation especially in the US. A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be…

> It seems Herbst is the one that wants a non-inclusive environment (ie. exactly conforming to his personal political preferences).

You have to understand that "inclusive" is newspeak and now pretty much always means that.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#50

Post by greatgib »

steveklabnik wrote: post #43
hitekker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.phoronix.com/news/Karol-Herbst-Nouveau-No , Karol Herbst is the maintainer of https://docs.mesa3d.org/rusticl.html which is written in Rust. He also contributes to Asahi Linux, and is apparently good friends with Hector Martin. It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.

> It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust. I don't think that's what's happening here. A lot of the rhetoric around all of these situations has a framing of "Rust people" coming into the kernel, and then getting into fights with "Kernel people." It's often combined with various stereotypes of each group, that the Rust folks are younger, less experienced, that the kernel folks have been around the…

As you said it:

   and then want to use Rust to improve it.
They try to use blackmail and shaming to push for the rust in kernel agenda down our throat when they see that the community is not willing to.
Post reply on HN