Live data from Hacker News

Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

reflectorbital.com

41–48 of 48 posts

Re: Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

#41
It boils down to building big surface area mirror cheap enough. Once you prove there is business demand, and you have your cheap Mylar satellites working, you scale your system up with better technology.

Of course they don't reveal their neat trick now because from a strategic point of view it would be bad, because other people would copy them, and probably outpace them.

Once it's only a physics problem, it becomes quite easy. Here are two potential solutions to the physics problem : Liquid mirrors, and plasma mirrors. The easiest being the liquid mirrors so let's explain this one. In fact it's so easy, it's child play.

Have your kids ever played with soap bubble : It's the same thing but in space. You make a big ring (roughly of the same area of the spot you are trying to make on the ground) (thin circular wire that you fold so that it will unfold itself like these tents) and you flow liquid metal (like mercury) on top to form a thin layer, hold by surface tension (and eventually electric field to have finer control of the shape or the surface).

The mirror will be a few atoms thick, a design that must be fabricated in space directly. It's just that we are not used to thinking with low force zero gravity environment. You don't use motors to move your mirror, you use fields spawned from precisely positioned points (and you have to compensate for solar winds).

Of course there are still technological problems due to the harsh conditions of space, but it's not something unheard of : https://engr.ncsu.edu/news/2024/03/06/reflecting-the-future-...

Re: Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

#43

It boils down to building big surface area mirror cheap enough. Once you prove there is business demand, and you have your cheap Mylar satellites working, you scale your system up with better technology. Of course they don't reveal their neat trick now because from a strategic point of view it would be bad, because other people would copy them, and probably outpace them. Once it's only a physics problem, it becomes q…

> You make a big ring (roughly of the same area of the spot you are trying to make on the ground)

Unfortunately, this is not how the size of the spot on the ground is decided. Sunlight, even if reflected by a perfectly shaped mirror, spreads by approx 1 meter every hundred meters. At the "edge of space" at 100km, your spot already has a 1km diameter, in reality with a higher orbit and imperfect mirror & tracking it will be much larger. The size of your (ideal) mirror decides the brightness of the spot, not the size of the spot.

Liquid mirrors in space seem like a cool concept though!

Re: Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

#44

It boils down to building big surface area mirror cheap enough. Once you prove there is business demand, and you have your cheap Mylar satellites working, you scale your system up with better technology. Of course they don't reveal their neat trick now because from a strategic point of view it would be bad, because other people would copy them, and probably outpace them. Once it's only a physics problem, it becomes q…

> You make a big ring (roughly of the same area of the spot you are trying to make on the ground) Unfortunately, this is not how the size of the spot on the ground is decided. Sunlight, even if reflected by a perfectly shaped mirror, spreads by approx 1 meter every hundred meters. At the "edge of space" at 100km, your spot already has a 1km diameter, in reality with a higher orbit and imperfect mirror & tracking it w…

The area comment was more relative about the power received : To be able to have the power on the ground you need to reflect it from space (pointing the obvious that with 100sqm of surface area, you can't collect more power than surface area * power density). You also don't want to overheat everything (otherwise you need sun towers instead of solar panels), so a ball park of around 1:1 is a good starting point.

To focus light, the ideal shape is a parabola, and it's a shape that occur naturally when you spin liquid in gravity. (Their are process to build big telescopes which only point up). Of course you don't have gravity anymore, but you can pull on your surface with fields, or you can have concentric rings that you align more or less along the axis to deform the surface. We don't need perfect focus just a rough spot.

Re: Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

#45
The reason we get a lot of light from the sun is not that the sun is particularily "bright" (high radiance) compared to other stars, it is because the the sun has an absolutely huge apparent size in the sky compared to all the other bright objects we can see.

Let's say you go to one of the illuminated areas that paid for reflectorbital-light and look up. What would you see? You would see a tiny bright spot flying past, with an angular size of about 10^-10 steradians [1].

This tiny spot has the same "brightness" (radiance) as the sun, because a mirror preserves radiance. However the mirror looks about 10 000 times smaller than the sun from your perspective (the sun has an angular size of about 10^-5 steradians). This means that the satellite would only give you 0.01% of the light compared to the real sun.

If you could somehow take 10k satellites and use them to illuminate the same spot, you could technically get it to resemble real sunlight. But imagine what this would look like: These satellite would need to be many enough / huge enough to cover a very significant portion of our sky, on the order of the apparent size our actual sun. They would be spread out in a sun-synchronous orbit, so they would be visible at dusk with this size, from all points on the earth. Would we really want that?

The founder has been thinking about using mirrors to collimate the sunlight to get around this problem, but it won't work. The collimator design he showed in a 2022 article [2] would decrease the focal spot from a 5km diameter to some smaller diameter as intended, but it would do so by throwing away light, not by increasing the brightness in this smaller spot. This is given by conservation of ètendue, one of the fundamental laws of nonimaging optics (where I do research).

[1] They are planning a 100sqm mirror at 600km altitude, which gives a solid angle of (100 m^2)/(600e3 m)^2

[2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/this-man-is-trying-to-put-mi...

Re: Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

#47
post #15
post #4

> selling sunlight Sounds like an eco disaster to me. Some things only happen when it's dark... I'm amazed I almost never read about a much more viable alternative: inter-continental power transmission cables. There are a few projects: UK buying electricity from Morocco, Singapore buying electricity from Australia. Both implemented using undersea power transmission cables. If this could be implemented on a global sca…

> inter-continental power transmission cables That's like saying "what we need is to improve mass public transit" -- no Vulture Capitalist would bite at that! You have to pitch a solo-vehicle-in-a-tunnel or some such crazy idea, so that everybody knows you're a "visionary".

What if the cables were accompanied by an app?

Is that too old school?

Becasue, of course, the cables would have AI, duh...

Re: Reflect Orbital: Sunlight after dark using a constellation of spatial reflectors

#48
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inter-continental power transmission cables That's like saying "what we need is to improve mass public transit" -- no Vulture Capitalist would bite at that! You have to pitch a solo-vehicle-in-a-tunnel or some such crazy idea, so that everybody knows you're a "visionary".

They exist and more are being built currently.

Pretty good list on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable#Operatio...

Post reply on HN