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Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

news.ycombinator.com

41–50 of 59 posts

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#41

But seriously, why do modern engineers try to reinvent the wheel for everything?? this x1000. 80%￶ of everything done since '01 has been the result of crap makework bullshit jobs.

You get what you measure. We measure part counts, cost, materials and very specific performance objectives.

Creating an end product that is elegant with intelligently integrated subsystems is not something we care about so it doesn't get done.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg. We also got far lower tailpipe emissions, less expensive manufacturing processes, far better rust prevention, and far better passenger and pedestrian safety features. Not to mention a more comfortable ride, almost zero water intrusion, lower cabin noise and vibration, less wind and tire noise, and longer lasting consumables such as plugs, oil, tires, and filters.

It’s absolutely insane to me what a government success story auto safety regulations have been. They’re incredibly safer and yet the cost hasn’t gone crazy.

Yeah it's true, it's a shame the consequences are so severe though. E.g. $1200 to replace a plastic bumper because it has some silly backup camera in it. I don't mind getting out of my car once or twice every time I need to hook up the trailer, and I learned to parallel park 22 years ago. I have no need for a backup camera and don't want to pay the penalty of owning one.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#43
post #37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, but we're talking about cars. Do we want to make cars disposable? Should people throw away their car every 12 years when parts are no longer made or the battery dies?

Apparently the average car is about 12 years old hone it's scrapped; so we basically are already there. If by making everything more reliable but hard to repair, they'd reliably go 12 years before exploding, I think it'd be a net win, as long as we had adequate recycling options available.

The average age of a vehicle on the road in the U.S. is 12.6 years. The total number of vehicles registered in the past 20 years is only up about 20%, so the average age of a vehicle being scrapped is more like 23 years. That also doesn't account for the fact that many older vehicles that are deregistered aren't even scrapped, they're sent to Mexico or overseas for a second life.

The massively lower repairability of modern cars, especially from sensors and airbags is going to significantly lower this lifetime IMO.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#44
I love my bicycle for this reason - I can do 100% of the maintenance and repairs myself (short of welding a cracked frame, but I could take everything off and swap it to a new frame). Almost all parts are standardized and available from third parties, even in case the original manufacturer goes under. And of course the whole thing cost less than that headlight assembly.

Anyways, I think the reason software follows this path is cost - rather than pay an engineer for optimization you have them work on new fancy features, and just expect the user to buy a faster machine. As computers get faster/cheaper this applies more and more.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#45

Optimizing for cost, weight & performance often comes at the cost of repairability. Buyers compare cars on measurable statistics so they'll buy the one that is cheaper, faster etc. Watch a Sandy Munro video and see the design details that get a lot of praise. The gigacasting is a nice example: great for performance and manufacturing, but bad for repair. Or, the car not having a separate floorpan and mounting the seat…

I guess I break the mold. I buy Toyota/Lexus that are inferior on stats today, but will be fine in 15 years while the other competitors build this year will have been in a scrap yard for 10 already.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#46
post #21

I guess I kind of agree with the thesis, although in turn auto technician is gradually becoming an increasingly skilled job and pay is (probably not quickly enough) generally increasing as well. Of course, this is frustrating to consumers as dealer repair costs become astronomical. In some ways the market is working as intended as especially used cars from manufacturers with perceived easier repair and maintenance (H…

Most profit is nabbed by shop owners, by an insane degree (unless you are owner AND operator).

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg. We also got far lower tailpipe emissions, less expensive manufacturing processes, far better rust prevention, and far better passenger and pedestrian safety features. Not to mention a more comfortable ride, almost zero water intrusion, lower cabin noise and vibration, less wind and tire noise, and longer lasting consumables such as plugs, oil, tires, and filters.

But is it worth the price? I concluded I'd rather build a vehicle that's simpler and better than the one I could buy. And it's costing me about 20% as much to do so. And it'll burn a hell of a lot less fuel.

Simpler? Sure. Better? I spent years in garages modifying and building street legal vehicles. On very few metrics were they better than what you could buy, then or now. If better means quicker, sure, you could do that. But it won't be safer, cheaper, more reliable, more efficient, lower polluting, or more comfortable than what you could buy from Ford or Toyota or Subaru or Tesla.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it worth the price? I concluded I'd rather build a vehicle that's simpler and better than the one I could buy. And it's costing me about 20% as much to do so. And it'll burn a hell of a lot less fuel.

Simpler? Sure. Better? I spent years in garages modifying and building street legal vehicles. On very few metrics were they better than what you could buy, then or now. If better means quicker, sure, you could do that. But it won't be safer, cheaper, more reliable, more efficient, lower polluting, or more comfortable than what you could buy from Ford or Toyota or Subaru or Tesla.

Modified vehicles can be completely reliable if you do it sensibly. More reliable, even, than factory. While the IDI 1HZ isn't the most optimal platform, I'm building my engine with 1HD-T rods aftermarket upgraded pistons which have proven successful in many other 1HZ-T builds. At the conservative no smoke 20psi tune I plan to run I'm confident it'll be fine, and I'll run a temp sensor in the head, EGT, and A/F meters to be sure. I'm using an efficient turbo (HX-30) with a massive FMIC. I'm building the A442F with upgraded valve body and torque converter, as well as a proven standalone controller. Running a large A/A transmission cooler as well. I'm not worried about reliability. I've also done a bunch of this stuff in other vehicles in the past and learned what works and what doesn't.

One thing I'm super excited to play with on this build is an exhaust brake. The transmission controller I plan to use will accept shift and TC lockup requests via CAN, so I'm planning on using a microcontroller to act as my "engine brake ECU" which will request downshifts, TC lockup, and increased line pressure when the brake is engaged. It'll also handle low speed shutoff. When the brake is disengaged it'll actuate the TV cable (using an extra cruise actuator and some power circuitry to run it) proportionately to boost. I'm not against computers in automotive projects in principle, I just don't much like ones I can't control.

Can't get an exhaust brake in a Grenadier, btw.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#49
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm not looking up the numbers for this but to devils advocate... Acceleration is way up since then, gasoline cars included. Crash tests are better. Collision avoidance and rear views make us safer as well. Reliability probably peaked already though.

Reliability peaked 2016. I would imagine if it stripped all the electronics you would find wonderfully tuned mechanical parts. I am not a mechanic but modular systems are great. Transmission and engine. That's all I want in computers to be involved in.

The problem is all those wonderfully tuned, reliable, and efficient mechanical parts require millions of lines of source code and some really intricate wiring to make them move. And you'll never have the documentation or the source code to keep it all going. So that means it'll probably be scrap long before it has reached EOL mechanically.

Re: Over engineered cars are pushing technicians away

#50
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This emphasis on leasing must be a short term fixation. Once companies move onto more mature generations of vehicles, the upgrade cycle will lengthen pushing more people toward ownership.

Leasing is mostly just a financing model for people who like to have new cars. It hasn't been economically sound for individuals maybe ever. The shortest I've owned a new car was 5 years and that's because it was a dog from Dodge. Exception may be some European cars which have a reputation for very expensive dealer maintenance after the warranty period.

Mercedes dealers in particular are thieves. Mercedes-Benz of Boston tried to bait and switch me replacing an AC compressor on my 1999 E300D Turbo. Initial quote was $1750, after they had the car a couple days they made up some bullshit about the condenser being bad and said therefore it would be $5000. I told them to go fuck themselves, bought the necessary refrigerant handling equipment, and did it myself. This was 5 years ago. Still nothing wrong with the condenser.

IME it's 100% of the time better to buy whatever tools you need and do the necessary research to DIY than to take a car to a mechanic. And certainly never a dealership.

EDIT: Almost forgot. When I checked the pressure in the AC system after getting it home before working on it, it was super high. What I suspect they did (because I told them I wasn't going to pay their usurious rate) was just cram a bunch of refrigerant into the system from their recovery tank in the hopes it would blow seals and screw me over. So, yeah, avoid MB of Boston in particular.

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