Amazon Career Choice Program • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#41

Post by jabwork » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 8:20 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #40

retroafroman wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a business decision. To get to study whatever they want, they have to stick around for 3 years. They're holding a bonus perk over their head for the first 3 years someone is working. Based on what I've read in this thread and also from the Mother Jones journalist [1], they have a terrible time keeping people in the organization, from programmers to warehouse associates, and everything between I assume. [1] h…

I can see how that explains the 3-year service minimum, but I'm not sure how that explains the field-of-study restrictions. Once you're there for 3 years, why do they care which courses you enroll in?

Ostensibly because high demand fields are more likely to get hired and lead successful careers outside of Amazon.

Logistically it also simplifies things because you can respond to "Why can't I pursue education X?" questions with "because the BLS doesn't list them"

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#42

Post by _delirium » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 8:32 PM UTC

jabwork wrote: post #41

_delirium wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how that explains the 3-year service minimum, but I'm not sure how that explains the field-of-study restrictions. Once you're there for 3 years, why do they care which courses you enroll in?

Ostensibly because high demand fields are more likely to get hired and lead successful careers outside of Amazon. Logistically it also simplifies things because you can respond to "Why can't I pursue education X?" questions with "because the BLS doesn't list them"

I guess I'm still confused why that matters to Amazon, unless it's part of some world-bettering mission. Wouldn't it be logistically simpler to say employees can enroll in any course offered by the state community college system, and wash their hands of it past that? I mean, they're just offering a perk as part of a compensation package, it's not like they're supposed to be their employees' parents or career counselors.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#43

Post by supercanuck » Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 9:14 PM UTC

uuilly wrote: post #19

I worked at Boeing for 4 years and they paid for pretty much any education you wanted and as much of it as you wanted. It's not that abnormal for big companies to do this.

Yep this is pretty why UW Bothell exists today.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#44

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 2:40 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #18

BadassFractal wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note, I think Amazon's tuition reimbursement is also more meager than that of Microsoft's, if not absent altogether. MS is happy to cover something close to 10k a year for your graduate degree.

That's comparing very differently compensated employees, though. This Amazon program is for hourly employees, such as warehouse staff. My guess is that Microsoft's willingness to pay $10k/yr for graduate tuition only extends to their salaried white-collar employees, unless they treat their hourly staff a lot better than I'd realized.

Amazon doesn't give tuition assistance for white-collar salaried engineers at all.

Source: my Amazon offer from Fall 2010.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#45

Post by codeonfire » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 2:40 AM UTC

Anyone making warehouse worker wages will probably qualify for over $10k in Pell grants immediately to complete an AS just by enrolling now, not in three years. Many programs are fully funded with scholarships and grants. Even if the person doesn't qualify for Pell or scholarships, They could borrow the $2k and living expenses, complete the program, and repay the loan well before the five years it would take them to get a two year degree under this plan. Those same students can also take the $2500 American Opportunity Tax Credit and start the AS program right now.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#46

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 2:42 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #27

danshapiro wrote: post #10

I'm pleased to hear that Amazon is doing this. It seems like a change of pace from their past treatment of temps ( http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/12/seasonal-w... ) and absence of philanthropic activity ( http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/201... ).

The cult internally at Amazon, in response to constant attacks regarding the lack of corporate philanthropy, is actually a hostile attitude towards corporate philanthropy. Internally, amongst the die-hard adherents, corporate philanthropy is seen as tyranny - pushing private agendas and priorities on the entire employee base who "pay into" such donations. The refrain that philanthropy runs counter to the obligation t…

Sounds like Jeff Bezos confuses himself with John Galt.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#47

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 2:50 AM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #3

From what I've heard, read and experienced, I'd argue that Amazon (or at least its Seattle HQ) is likely the company that offers the best benefits. And real benefits that affect the employees' lives, not things like beanbags in every office and foosball table. One of my best friends recently got hired by Amazon. I won't disclose his full benefits+relocation package because that's private to him, but it included many…

Having had an Amazon offer and being able to compare it to others, NO!

* Amazon's health insurance offering is vastly inferior to that of, say, Microsoft or Google. I don't know what Google's health plan looks like, but I know that Microsoft's was "pretend your Canadian". Everything sensible and necessary is fully covered, with copays never being anything more than nominal. Everything: medical, dental, optical, disability, family, all of it.

* Amazon requires longer hours and offers less vacation and holiday time than both Microsoft and Google. As a nice touch from my MS offer at the time, they offer 3 "floating holidays". These expire every year instead of accruing like vacation days, but they are usable more-or-less whenever for the purpose of accounting for cultural/religious occasions (Eid, Rosh ha'Shanah, Tanabata, Easter, Denali, whatever).

* Amazon and MS both have cafeterias, but make you pay. MS has free drinks, though, and Google has free... everything.

* Amazon offers higher salaries and attracts money-grubbers. MS offers lower salaries but better benefits. Google is more selective about hiring but offers higher salaries and better benefits.

* Amazon requires almost every engineer to spend at least a month per year doing 24/7 on-call support. No other company I've ever seen practices this.

Overall, Amazon appears to have caught itself in fantasies of being Galt's Gulch, while Google and even MS (not to even talk about Valve!) offer a lot more stability and benefits. It gives the impression that Amazon is perfectly happy with its high worker turnover, whereas the other two intend to hire for the long term.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#48

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 2:51 AM UTC

jmduke wrote: post #38

mathattack wrote: post #20

It's better than nothing, but look at the target... $1 and hour of educational benefit ($2000/year divided by 2000 hours/day) is great for someone making $8 an hour. That's a 12.5% raise off the cuff. Apply it to someone making 100K, and it's a lot less. Some big companies do full tuition reimbursement, but the # is shrinking over time.

I don't expect any Amazon employees who are making 100K to need a subsidized associates degree, though.

Many of Amazon's competitors in the employment market, however, offer tuition reimbursement for MSc or PhD degrees.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#49

Post by lurker14 » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 3:41 AM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #20

It's better than nothing, but look at the target... $1 and hour of educational benefit ($2000/year divided by 2000 hours/day) is great for someone making $8 an hour. That's a 12.5% raise off the cuff. Apply it to someone making 100K, and it's a lot less. Some big companies do full tuition reimbursement, but the # is shrinking over time.

Did you read the page? It's a program for hourly workers in the warehouses, not for salaried employees who already have an education and a desirable career.

Re: Amazon Career Choice Program

#50

Post by nirvana » Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 12:34 PM UTC

c2 wrote: post #31

potatolicious wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "At a big company (like Amazon) there are good managers and bad managers." This is a lousy excuse and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I too had a bad manager at Amazon. So did my roommate. So did my friends in the company. So did his friends. In fact, I was a returning intern who went back full-time with dozens of other employees, and here we are 3 years in... and practically no one remains. I can count the number of…

Also be wary about anecdotes from previous employees who feel slighted by the company, because they are usually passionately vitriolic and have a bone to pick :)

Why is it when someone talks about a bad experience they had, then they are biased? Why do you feel the need to minimize my experience? "Slighted"? No, I was slighted by microsoft thru an unintentional sequence of events. I'd still say "Congratulations" to any friend who was excited about a job he got there.

I was abused by amazon, lied to, and when I attempted to resolve the issue, my trust was betrayed by HR, and my ability to transfer to a better job with a non-abusive manager within the company was blocked.

This was not being slighted, this was a systematically broken system.

But still, since what happened to me doesn't portray amazon in the best light, then I must be "vitriolic" in all my anger and thus not actually telling the truth....while you, whose only been there 18 months, is the beacon of objectivity, because you're saying nothing bad, right?