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I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

heatpumped.org

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Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#41

Post by nottorp »

torginus wrote: post #40
nottorp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds good and altruistic... ... for the high income techies that make most of the HN audience. Ask a normal person how they feel about paying for the heat pumps and having an extra hundred or two on their ongoing heating bill and you may get a different answer. Up to and including them not being able to cut expenses anywhere else to compensate for this.

You can DIY an usable solar setup, complete with battery, for a couple thousand euros, panels and inverters are already quite cheap and the battery prices is coming down. If you have the space to put it, you can be self-sufficient for most of the year. Equipment is VAT-free in Germany and Austria, too. The big problem with solar, is that winter days are cold and dark, so when you need heating the most, it's the least…

> If you have the space to put it

High income people living in detached houses again...

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#42

Post by KptMarchewa »

jakedata wrote: post #6

Protip - it's often cheaper to heat with burning buffalo chips than electricity even if your heat pump is super efficient. Do a spreadsheet and maybe get some solar panels to feed the new beast. Otherwise you may just need to bask in the glow of self satisfaction and enjoy not poisoning yourself with VOCs and CO. I'm not subscribing to your newsletter...

In many places of the world winter means no or barely any sun. Panels won't help.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#43

Post by KptMarchewa »

barrettondricka wrote: post #18
hsuduebc2 wrote: post #9

Protip. Just insert any valid email into subscription dialog and it instantly unlocks. No need to register.

Great tip indeed. However, please don't use anybody else's email. (No @example.com) Preferably use the domain of the website itself, or of a SEO spam website.

I use emails of politicians I don't like.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#44

Post by Kim_Bruning »

nottorp wrote: post #41
torginus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can DIY an usable solar setup, complete with battery, for a couple thousand euros, panels and inverters are already quite cheap and the battery prices is coming down. If you have the space to put it, you can be self-sufficient for most of the year. Equipment is VAT-free in Germany and Austria, too. The big problem with solar, is that winter days are cold and dark, so when you need heating the most, it's the least…

> If you have the space to put it High income people living in detached houses again...

I think it depends on the country. In some places electricity is cheaper than gas (already) and it starts to go the direction of a no-brainer. But see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

On the other hand, with less demand from part of the population, gas prices should ultimately start to come down a bit; if we look at straight spot prices and pure economic theory.

However, for some reason utilities don't always care about theory. And we probably want to stop using gas and oil in Europe anyway; would be smarter. (We're pretty much literally paying for wars waged against us; now and in future)

So, I'm thinking maybe some sort of subsidized replacement program; perhaps interest-free loans with government backing or some such; which can be paid back with (part of) the efficiency gains?

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#45

Post by Kim_Bruning »

nottorp wrote: post #39
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but... the externalities are really expensive, and are going to be paid by somebody. It's a hidden cost

Agreed, but you only tend to accept that when the other needs in that famous pyramid are taken care of. Regulation that increases cost of living is only going to cause resentment and we already see where that leads to. Can't do it with feel good statements, you need the authorities to support/push towards cheaper electricity. Like the Denmark poster said elsewhere on this thread. Is this going to happen globally? I s…

China is pushing hard; EU is pushing less hard but a little; only the US (says) they're going to lag behind these next few years.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#46

Post by Kim_Bruning »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #42
jakedata wrote: post #6

Protip - it's often cheaper to heat with burning buffalo chips than electricity even if your heat pump is super efficient. Do a spreadsheet and maybe get some solar panels to feed the new beast. Otherwise you may just need to bask in the glow of self satisfaction and enjoy not poisoning yourself with VOCs and CO. I'm not subscribing to your newsletter...

In many places of the world winter means no or barely any sun. Panels won't help.

It gets interesting with batteries, panels, and spot prices. You can eg. offset (some of) your winter costs in summer. And it does depend on your latitude and local market. It's an interesting optimization problem.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#47

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Good article though the combination of the clickbait headline and the (later removed) subscription wall makes many of the comments less useful as they are reacting mostly to the headline.

It should in theory be possible to have "no regret" government support for this similar to the price collar used for renewables.

People are not rational economic actors and some kind of insurance for the worst case scenario can help make markets work better.

I think in California they have some kind of support for efficiency improvements which is funded based on evidence of lower bills afterwards so that might also help to incentivized good heat pump installs (including the physical install, the controls, being on the right tariff and promptly fixing any issues that comes up).

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#48

Post by Kim_Bruning »

blitzar wrote: post #29
dangus wrote: post #4

This is both hard to explain to people and hard to get them onboard even once it's been explained and understood. I think more people should think about things this way: I'm building a house now, so am I betting that in 30 years the price of gas will decrease or increase? Will electricity decrease or increase in price? Anyone who has seen a graph of solar, battery, wind, and other renewable power grid solution costs…

> that electricity should decrease in cost over time On the back of decades of experience - year in, year out the only constant is that utility bills go up. This time it might be different, but I doubt it.

Depends on time and place. I know there's spot price contracts you can get that will -at times of day and year- go negative. That is to say, they'll pay you to use electricity (or alternately, they'll actually charge you if you feed in solar power). At other times of day the price is positive again.

It takes a bit of savvy -and panels, and batteries- to actually make optimal use of this, I figure. That said, prices sometimes going negative, however the circumstances, is definitely a bit of a change.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#49

Post by torginus »

nottorp wrote: post #41
torginus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can DIY an usable solar setup, complete with battery, for a couple thousand euros, panels and inverters are already quite cheap and the battery prices is coming down. If you have the space to put it, you can be self-sufficient for most of the year. Equipment is VAT-free in Germany and Austria, too. The big problem with solar, is that winter days are cold and dark, so when you need heating the most, it's the least…

> If you have the space to put it High income people living in detached houses again...

Lots of people who are not exactly high income live in the countryside, too..

Additionally, living in shared housing does not disqualify you from having solar panels installed either - if you live in an apartment complex that's a modestly sized 2x2x2 - meaning it has 4x the surface area, and 4x the roof area, the math generally works out the same - for longer houses, it's better, for taller ones its worse, but I think there are a ton of sweet spots, but tall and skinny apartment buildings will lose out.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#50

Post by KptMarchewa »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #46
KptMarchewa wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many places of the world winter means no or barely any sun. Panels won't help.

It gets interesting with batteries, panels, and spot prices. You can eg. offset (some of) your winter costs in summer. And it does depend on your latitude and local market. It's an interesting optimization problem.

Maybe - but then you end up in a situation like author where delivery costs trump generation, because the additional winter capacity does not come from nowhere. And the actual best case is what happens in California - mass deployment of batteries.
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