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Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#41

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

tomlockwood wrote: post #2

I don't quite understand what the conservatives think DEI actually is, because as far as I can tell three women being in leadership positions in the LA fire department is "DEI". It just seems like the new "woke" or "political correctness", and just as vague.

It's whatever each company makes of it, which is why definitions vary.

It can range from explicit efforts to actively reach out to candidates from schools with students predominantly from historically-disadvantaged groups, to outright "no hiring of white men this quarter" (which is one of the more egregious documented cases, https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi...).

What I think most conservatives think it is: When choosing between a more qualified white cis man and a less qualified "diverse" candidate, some companies will pick the latter specifically due to DEI policies. I am very sure this is actually happening (see also e.g. the above source).

Turns out people don't like being explicitly discriminated against, even if they're from a majority group.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#42

Post by logicchains »

pavlov wrote: post #38
nailer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody thinks women being in leadership in the fire department is DEI. Three lesbians being leaders at the same time though (as happened a few years ago) given the small portion of lesbian firefighters seems indicative of bias.

And by this same logic, the Nobel Committee for Physics has an obvious historical bias towards Jews, right? What else could explain 37 Jewish physics Nobel winners in the 20th century? People can simply be good at something. Maybe lesbian firefighters actually work very hard to overcome the expectations against them.

>And by this same logic, the Nobel Committee for Physics has an obvious historical bias towards Jews, right?

No, because Ashkenazi Jews have been demonstrated to perform significantly better on IQ tests on average, and performance on IQ tests is associated with various intellectual outcomes like winning the Nobel Prize. On the other hand, lesbians haven't been demonstrated to perform better on any kind of metrics associated with success at firefighting, and the greater difficulty women face gaining muscle mass puts them at a disadvantage.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#43

Post by gnz11 »

lupusreal wrote: post #27
poulpy123 wrote: post #22

I don't care either way since I'm not concerned but I can shake how bizarre and grotesque the switch to and from DEI were. The very recent example of Zuckerberg going full "masculine energy has been neutered by feminine energy" like he is some kind of Andrew Tate influencer is quite unbelievable for the CEO of a 600 billion dollars company

The rapid switch is indicative of widespread preference falsification followed by a preference cascade. Basically, people where sick of DEI for a long time but stayed quiet about it because they were afraid of reprisal for speaking out and didn't know they had numbers on their side because everybody else was staying quiet about it too. This is a condition which can last for decades, but once the dam breaks it breaks…

Eh, I’d argue most people don’t think or care about DEI or go on social media to post weird rants. Most people have better things to do. Social media and the Web can amplify opinions that really aren’t that widespread in reality.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#44

Post by pavlov »

slt2021 wrote: post #39
pavlov wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enforced how exactly? You’re contradicting yourself. You say it’s “vibes and fuzzy warm words”, but those can’t be enforced.

enforced top-down from leaders and decision makers by the "commitment to diversity" and hiring of unqualified people based on diversity representation, not merit. the most recent example is Kamala Harris: she had the worst primary performance during 2020, but still was selected as VP by Biden and was nominated without primaries again in 2024. Her electoral results speak for DEI in general, when hiring decision is don…

We’re talking about corporations, not political parties.

If this enforcement to hire unqualified people is happening, surely there’s lots of evidence? Internal emails and messages regularly get released as part of lawsuits. There must be lots of cases where middle managers at Apple are complaining that they’re being forced to hire an unqualified person because of a top-down edict, as you say.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#45

Post by throw94838211 »

blub wrote: post #36
mschuster91 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEI means lowering standards to accomodate minorities and discrimination against more qualified white males Women are perfectly capable of working in firefighting, the military or police. I've personally seen a female police officer of barely 1.60m throw a drunk 2m Russian dude on a rampage in a bar fight onto the ground and tie him up alone , about a solid third of the volunteer force in my THW unit are women, a g…

The case of the two policewomen which ran away from a shooting and left their male colleagues to fend for themselves caused quite a stir in Germany. During the trial they said they were deadly afraid and didn’t see how many shooters there were and from where the shots were coming. Got in their car and left. I tried to find an equivalent male example, but every newspaper was writing about this particular case.

> I tried to find an equivalent male example, but every newspaper was writing about this particular case

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvalde_school_shooting

me thinks if newspapers can only write about one case, it's not that widespread

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#46

Post by pavlov »

logicchains wrote: post #42
pavlov wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by this same logic, the Nobel Committee for Physics has an obvious historical bias towards Jews, right? What else could explain 37 Jewish physics Nobel winners in the 20th century? People can simply be good at something. Maybe lesbian firefighters actually work very hard to overcome the expectations against them.

>And by this same logic, the Nobel Committee for Physics has an obvious historical bias towards Jews, right? No, because Ashkenazi Jews have been demonstrated to perform significantly better on IQ tests on average, and performance on IQ tests is associated with various intellectual outcomes like winning the Nobel Prize. On the other hand, lesbians haven't been demonstrated to perform better on any kind of metrics ass…

Do you really think being a successful leader in a fire department is about muscle mass and genetics?

Or that IQ tests predict physics Nobels?

My lord…

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#47

Post by machinekob »

Arisaka1 wrote: post #7
machinekob wrote: post #3

DEI was so good and righteous idea that it shifted most of the western world to the right more than dozens of islamist terrorist attacks in previous decades. And ofc. all US corporations would follow this cultural change or they’ll risk antitrust/tax/law investigations from Trump and all EU government that’ll be elected in next few years.

Didn't the exact same companies introduced the exact same changes they now revert not out of firm belief but to demonstrate support? If someone adapts to the environment out of self-preservation then they were never supportive of any cause. I wish people would stop humanizing big companies.

Yes they do this every time and it will happen every time culture shift nothing new.

problem with DEI and other politicL "incentives" is that they are very visible and easy to make normal people angry about.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#48

Post by sertraline »

inglor_cz wrote: post #35
poulpy123 wrote: post #22

I don't care either way since I'm not concerned but I can shake how bizarre and grotesque the switch to and from DEI were. The very recent example of Zuckerberg going full "masculine energy has been neutered by feminine energy" like he is some kind of Andrew Tate influencer is quite unbelievable for the CEO of a 600 billion dollars company

It was a gesture for preening on the social networks, and now that the winds have changed, they will be trying to buy attention and approval on social networks through something else. It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money . If DEI was improving the bottom line measurably, as its proponents promise, capitalists would be loath to scrap it entirely. Possibly they would change the name of the pr…

This is what interested me for a long time. The media industry in particular demonstrates very well that DEI content is not only unprofitable; it is net negative to the companies that produce it. The state of the movie industry is such that we have movies that have positive journalist reviews and negative user reviews, yet nobody is watching these movies, and each movie production costs them hundreds of millions. This should have a giant impact on a company that produces such content, yet the company keeps going on producing something that is net negative to it. Obviously, this looks like a push from investors. But why aren't investors interested in seeing more profits?

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#49

Post by slt2021 »

pavlov wrote: post #44
slt2021 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

enforced top-down from leaders and decision makers by the "commitment to diversity" and hiring of unqualified people based on diversity representation, not merit. the most recent example is Kamala Harris: she had the worst primary performance during 2020, but still was selected as VP by Biden and was nominated without primaries again in 2024. Her electoral results speak for DEI in general, when hiring decision is don…

We’re talking about corporations, not political parties. If this enforcement to hire unqualified people is happening, surely there’s lots of evidence? Internal emails and messages regularly get released as part of lawsuits. There must be lots of cases where middle managers at Apple are complaining that they’re being forced to hire an unqualified person because of a top-down edict, as you say.

just look at the LA FD: what are the chances that 3 top leaders in FD are lesbian women?

Given the fact that the rest of the fire dept are white males, the chances of this happening at random are minuscule. This is the proof that people who have DEI factors are promoted to the top leadership, with the predictable poor outcomes

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#50

Post by lupusreal »

gnz11 wrote: post #43
lupusreal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rapid switch is indicative of widespread preference falsification followed by a preference cascade. Basically, people where sick of DEI for a long time but stayed quiet about it because they were afraid of reprisal for speaking out and didn't know they had numbers on their side because everybody else was staying quiet about it too. This is a condition which can last for decades, but once the dam breaks it breaks…

Eh, I’d argue most people don’t think or care about DEI or go on social media to post weird rants. Most people have better things to do. Social media and the Web can amplify opinions that really aren’t that widespread in reality.

People care insofar as their lives are made to intersect with it.

Zuckerberg in particular most likely cares and isn't being performative when he speaks out against it. I'm surprised that people are surprised he has. The man likes to larp as a bronze age hunter, killing goats with spears in his backyard. He trains in combat sports and wants to have a celebrity boxing match with Elon Musk. He's the father of half-asian children, who are classified as "negative diversity" by DEI initiatives. The man fits the profile for somebody who hates DEI, but until recently he wasn't speaking out against it. If he, despite his enormous privilege, felt cowed into silence by DEI, that speaks to the strength of the social forces driving the preference falsification.

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