Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 493 posts

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#41

Post by santoshalper »

soerxpso wrote: post #38
osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

Microsoft doesn't sell hardware. Why would they be incentivized to make you buy new hardware? Unless you're alleging that their hardware partners pushed for it, in which case there would likely be logs of communications that are pretty illegal.

They do sell some PCs, but their market share is very low, and I can't imagine it's a significant part of their revenue. They definitely wouldn't bother slowing down Windows 11 adoption to sell a few more Surface Books.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#42

Post by mysteria »

tasn wrote: post #20
jakogut wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always an analog loophole. Even if the OS is unable to access the memory storing the decrypted data, you could always just plug the output of the machine into a capture card and capture the decrypted stream that way. I suppose some monitors and TVs have "features" to cryptographically handshake with the GPU and ensure a secure link, but at some point the data must be decrypted and decoded to be displayed. Thi…

The end goal is DRM all the way to the screen. No capture cards will be allowed. It's a cat and mouse game, but I wouldn't discount these efforts as a mere speed bump. Screen enforced DRM will make things much harder. A motivated individual with the right tools and hardware hacking know how may be able to jailbreak a screen to record stuff, but that's going to make things out of reach for most people.

In this case the piracy model might change into something like the software cracking scene where groups with specialized skills and equipment would be the ones doing the uploading. Regular people wouldn't be able to make copies with a capture card to send to their friends but popular films and shows would definitely still be released by those groups.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#43

Post by maeil »

refulgentis wrote: post #25
MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

That things are just annoying enough to pirate that there isn't ever a freeforall, like limewire or kazaa, again.

Depends, in certain locales pirate IPTV is very popular, arguably even easier than Kazaa ever was! Stick a USB in your TV, done.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#44

Post by quikthrowaway »

soerxpso wrote: post #38
osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

Microsoft doesn't sell hardware. Why would they be incentivized to make you buy new hardware? Unless you're alleging that their hardware partners pushed for it, in which case there would likely be logs of communications that are pretty illegal.

They don't sell hardware, but they get paid when their hardware partners sell you a new laptop with Windows on it.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#45

Post by Stagnant »

_yb2s wrote: post #14

There’s some technical details missing here. I get decrypting the video on a gpu makes it harder to screen capture, but can’t you just still emulate the GPU in software or directly capture the digital video output? The GPU still has no unique hardware private key, right?

Yes, you can get around it by playing the video in a virtual machine and capturing it from the host. For widevine videos playing in browser it is also as trivial as disabling hardware acceleration from the browser's settings.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#46

Post by BeefWellington »

soerxpso wrote: post #38
osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

Microsoft doesn't sell hardware. Why would they be incentivized to make you buy new hardware? Unless you're alleging that their hardware partners pushed for it, in which case there would likely be logs of communications that are pretty illegal.

Microsoft does sell operating systems (and user data from those operating systems). Those operating systems are typically bundled / installed by default on computers.

It's in their best interests to have everyone using the "latest and greatest" for those features that weren't present (at least to the same extent) in prior versions.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#47

Post by loeg »

jakogut wrote: post #12
MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

There's always an analog loophole. Even if the OS is unable to access the memory storing the decrypted data, you could always just plug the output of the machine into a capture card and capture the decrypted stream that way. I suppose some monitors and TVs have "features" to cryptographically handshake with the GPU and ensure a secure link, but at some point the data must be decrypted and decoded to be displayed. Thi…

Yeah, but pirate groups are getting the original streaming service's compression without re-encoding (so-called "WEB-DL"), even of 4k content. There's a weaker link somewhere.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#48

Post by solarkraft »

zb3 wrote: post #22
stackghost wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normies are who you need to convince if you want to effect social change. If the FSF sticks to their current mission of preaching to the choir, they'll remain about as relevant as they are today, which isn't a lot.

People in power and people with money are who you need to convince..

And how are they best convinced? Besides personal benefits like bribes, public opinion (re-election) and consumer habits (company profitability) seem to matter significantly. Please do add the options that I am forgetting.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#49

Post by z3phyr »

santoshalper wrote: post #34
osy wrote: post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

If you're going to run Windows 11 anyway, why would Microsoft care if you do it on a new or older PC?

Most of the people using Microsoft have OEM licence. When people buy new hardware, people are buying a new license of Windows as well.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#50

Post by WeylandYutani »

stackghost wrote: post #2

>The FSF's focus on TPMs here is not only technically wrong, it's indicative of a failure to understand what's actually happening in the industry. This sounds 100% on-brand for the FSF. The FSF's primary public-facing persona has peculiar computing habits so far removed from the mainstream that it's likely he has absolutely no clue how the real world works. In fact by his own statement he has to rely on volunteers to…

Normal people watch Netflix on a smart TV. Or their phone.

Hell the only reason why I turn on my computer these days is for videogames. I wonder if the decline of the desktop has someone worried at Microsoft.

Post reply on HN