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Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

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Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#41

Post by aoeu »

I taught myself Dvorak many years ago during lunch breaks using this tutor (I think the webpage was much simpler back then, though the content looks the same).. http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/lessons/

Although I could type quite well from an early age (despite the ZX Spectrum's rubber keys) I never learnt to touch type Qwerty. Learning Dvorak forced me to touch type and rest on the home keys properly. Using a "normal" keyboard also meant I couldn't cheat and look at the keys when using Dvorak.

Probably due to now touch typing, Dvorak is faster for me (and more comfy). I'm forced to use Qwerty often enough however that I can switch between the two fairly easily.

I'm in the UK but use the US-Dvorak layout as that is standard with Windows. I'm therefore missing the pound sign but ALT-156 gets me through the odd occasions I need it. I have tried the UK version on Linux but couldn't find the exact same layout for Windows and am too lazy to re-create it myself. The US version is good enough for me.

I tend to use the old DOS style keys for cut/copy/paste (Shift-Delete, Ctrl-Insert, Shift-Insert) due to the odd xcv layout others have mentioned. I learnt emacs after the switch so the layout seems fine to me. I haven't taken the time to learn VI.

Windows is a little awkward as switching layout with the taskbar icon only changes the active window and changing the default input language seems to miss things like the start menu.

I think an ergo keyboard is the next step (I can feel my wrists are pushed into a slightly unnatural position) but am yet to try one. This makes a lot of sense to me also but again I'm yet to try it.. http://www.tlb.org/keyboardchop.html

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#44

Post by euccastro »

jcl wrote: post #33
justinchen wrote: post #18

I haven't tried an alternative layout, but I do use a Kinesis countoured keyboard and that has made typing less painful for me. My hands rest very naturally on the keyboard and there's less distance to travel when tapping the keys. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm

I've played with one of these as well, and I've noticed that while typing raw text is considerably easier, I'm frustrated by the limited support for modifier keys. The control, alt, and Windows keys are put under the thumbs, which I found awkward to type. Also, they are distributed among four keys, so you can't have them all on both the left and right. You thus can't follow the recommended typing practice of pressing…

You thus can't follow the recommended typing practice of pressing a modifier key with the opposite hand as the key being modified.

One of the reasons for that practice is that modifier keys are typically pressed with your pinkie. You also use that finger for typing characters, so for these characters you need to break your habits. Eventually you build new ones, but it'd be better not to need this. Even for characters that you don't type with your pinkie, you may need to stretch your fingers in awkward ways.

Thumbs are only used for the space bar, which is seldom used with modifier keys --and you can use either thumb for it, so you can alternate. Also, thumbs are less 'coupled' with the other fingers.

I'd still prefer my modifiers duplicated on either side, but I can see how this may matter less if they go under your thumbs.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#45

Post by euccastro »

mcxx wrote: post #35
mazer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went whole hog and switched to the Kinesis Contoured and to the Dvorak layout. I'm an Emacs user, and had been one since before the switch. I'd also touch typed qwerty before the switch. A few comments: * The first week or two is almost completely unproductive. You spend most of your time screaming at your fingers to just shut up and get used to the new arrangement. * Once you make the adjustment, although your typ…

That's one reason why I'm not so keen on learning Dvorak - you won't be able to write efficiently on any other computer than yours. Until now, it was just my assumption, that by learning Dvorak (or any other layout as a matter of fact), you'll lose your QWERTY-fu. Thanks for sharing. I'll probably stick with QWERTY and a Kinesis keyboard.

I was a mediocre QWERTY typist when I switched to Dvorak. I lost what little ability I had in QWERTY. I heard of people who could switch between the two, but I haven't even tried. In some 5 years I haven't missed the ability to write efficiently in other computers.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#46

Post by ken »

Hovertruck wrote: post #16
a-priori wrote: post #9

I have used Dvorak full-time for 5-6 years now. Back in high school, a friend of mine discovered Dvorak and a few of us switched cold-turkey; everyone else switched back within a week, but I'm still going! It took about two weeks for me to be comfortable with it. If you're like me, it's the punctuation that will screw you up the most when switching. I'm an Emacs user, but I learned Emacs after I learned Dvorak, so I…

Is it wrong that I use the arrow keys in Vim?

One of my coworkers uses only C-[pnbf] for cursor movement in Emacs, and so has mapped the arrow keys to scrolling the viewport.

So: "maybe, if you would have used them for something better".

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#47

Post by euccastro »

I've been using a modified Dvorak for about 5 years.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=351137

I had never been a great typist with QWERTY, so while I noticed obvious performance gains after some time, I can't attribute them to the layout switch. I got proficiency faster, but if you are already good at QWERTY this is irrelevant to you.

It did feel more comfortable from very early on, and this I do attribute to intrinsic advantages of Dvorak.

My error rate with parens/brackets/braces used to be high until I put them in matching fingers of the opposite hand, in the numbers row, unshifted. Even though this makes numbers harder to type, it's a net gain since I don't type in many numbers when programming. And I make less mistakes with them too.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#48

Post by tc »

snowboardbum wrote: post #5

It took me about two weeks to learn Dvorak well enough to type at a reasonable pace. I don't think I type any faster, but it's much more comfortable than QWERTY so I enjoy typing more. OS X has a Dvorak keyboard map that switches back to QWERTY while you're holding down the command key. I don't know if there's an equivalent for Windows.

I've been typing Dvorak for years. I made the switch concurrently with changing to a TypeMatrix keyboard (http://typematrix.com/). TypeMatrix keyboards aren't radically different (cf. DataHand), but they are radically better. They don't stagger the keys, and they place #\Newline and #\Backspace in the center of the keyboard so you aren't contorting your pinky finger for these common keys (the source of an unbelievable amount of typing pain).

Once you type for a few minutes on a TypeMatrix (Qwerty or Dvorak), you come to understand the gross insanity of continuing to stagger the keys on a modern keyboard.

The TypeMatrix keyboards are switchable (via hardware) between Qwerty and Dvorak with a function key. I use X/loadkeys mapping most of the time anyway, but this is quite useful for boot prompts, BIOSes, and new installations.

As for learning Dvorak if you're already a fast typist, I like to say that it feels similar to how people describe quitting cigarette smoking (I've never had to do that personally). That is, for the first few weeks typing is a conscious process, and painfully slow (I got up to 20 wpm after just a couple days, but getting back up to 100+ wpm takes awhile). So what happens is that things come up, you have to send an email out quickly, or you need to debug some pressing problem, and you'll feel a powerful, visceral urge to switch back, just temporarily, so you can bang out the email or solve the problem. But you know you can't do that; you'll fall off the wagon.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#49

Post by aikiai »

jcl wrote: post #33
justinchen wrote: post #18

I haven't tried an alternative layout, but I do use a Kinesis countoured keyboard and that has made typing less painful for me. My hands rest very naturally on the keyboard and there's less distance to travel when tapping the keys. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm

I've played with one of these as well, and I've noticed that while typing raw text is considerably easier, I'm frustrated by the limited support for modifier keys. The control, alt, and Windows keys are put under the thumbs, which I found awkward to type. Also, they are distributed among four keys, so you can't have them all on both the left and right. You thus can't follow the recommended typing practice of pressing…

I was looking to get my thumb more involved in the action, which is what led me to the Kinesis Advantage. After seeing the built in Dvorak support and the natural contour, I was sold. 6 months in, I love it, and am considering buying a second for my home setup.

I remapped a LOT of the keys however. Caps -> Ctrl is crucial, put escape on an elevated thumb button... all the navigation keys to the "4th row"... basically I sat down and thought about where i wanted my control keys to be for easy access, and remapped them there. That solved all of my initial control key problems.

If you're the kind of person who's interested in learning Dvorak, and shelling out $200 for a keyboard, that's not much of a stretch.

Re: Ask HN: Using alternative keyboard layouts?

#50

Post by twopoint718 »

a-priori wrote: post #9

I have used Dvorak full-time for 5-6 years now. Back in high school, a friend of mine discovered Dvorak and a few of us switched cold-turkey; everyone else switched back within a week, but I'm still going! It took about two weeks for me to be comfortable with it. If you're like me, it's the punctuation that will screw you up the most when switching. I'm an Emacs user, but I learned Emacs after I learned Dvorak, so I…

I learned Dvorak over a summer break late in high school/early college (about 10 years). I was never a very good typist, so maybe this colors my 'switch' story. I think that I just generally have a hard time with feats of manual dexterity (no musical instruments, etc.), so I consider myself about the worst case scenario for QWERTY Dvorak switch time; I hope this gives someone who's on the edge the push to give Dvorak a try. It took me about 2 weeks to be able to use it such that it wasn't aggravating, 3 and I was using backspace way less, 4 I could use IM, 5 I was faster than I ever was with any QWERTY method and in 6 weeks it was very natural. So if you think it'll be a painful ordeal, just think that you'll almost certainly do better than me.

I'm also a post-Dvorak Emacs user. The way that Emacs works is just wired into my fingers now, I don't have to think about what the keys are, I just think "Find file" or "Suspend Emacs" etc. Some chords are probably a little tougher to do, but they are the exception rather than the rule. If there is a weird fringe benefit of Dvorak use it is that it makes me way more reluctant to reach for the mouse in any circumstance. I've never moved the keycaps on my keyboard (so there is no "cheating" while looking down) and so I have to depend on my fingers always being on the home row. I have to agree with Steve Yegge ("Effective Emacs") and consider using the mouse to be a pretty grave cache miss.

I'm a relative newbie to vim but I have no trouble moving around, I just developed a "feel" for where the HJKL keys go. It is hard to describe but you can kind of "unroll" their directionality in your brain. In some ways vim is nice (although it won't ever move me from solid Emacsity) in that the commands are simple letters which Dvorak makes really easy and comfortable to hit.

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