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How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

hynek.me

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Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#41

Post by hynek »

jnoller wrote: post #10

Other Python/Outreach/Education Resources: Python Core mentorship: http://pythonmentors.com/ PSF Outreach and Education committee: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/outreach-and-educati... - this is meant to help identify groups/etc for the PSF to help fund. Via the http://www.python.org/psf/grants/ program(s) (see also resolutions: http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/ ) Boston Python Workshop:…

I have added them (and the ones you and Alex added) to the article. Feel free to send me more.

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#42

Post by batista »

roguelynn wrote: post #5
goodside wrote: post #2

"So first of all, let’s get one thing out of the way: Diversity is good for a community. "If we can’t agree on this fact, the rest of the article is futile. There are many studies that support this point and if you’re not convinced, this article isn’t for you." I'll bite: What real-world measure of goodness (that isn't tautologically identical to diversity) has been shown to increase as a function of an open-source c…

"We have created this diversity statement because we believe that a diverse Python community is stronger and more vibrant. A diverse community where people treat each other with respect has more potential contributors and more sources for ideas." Source: http://www.python.org/community/diversity/ Universal Design, the idea that produces "buildings, products and environments that are inherently accessible to both peop…

>Think about it, if Apple had a woman's input, do you think it'd be named iPad?!? For fck sake, it's the most ridiculous name ever, reminding half the population of the embarrassing trip to the drug store.*

Really? Because women in the eighties for example didn't seem to have any problems with, say, shoulder-pads, on the contrary, they were VERY popular.

That lame argument was played a lot in some news sites when the thing was introduced. It died in like 1-2 weeks, as 99.9% of the people don't make the BS mental connection between the two things.

Not to mention there isn't much of a connection in the first place. Not much more than notepads, shoulder-pads, launchpads, trackpads or touchpads have...

Plus, wasn't one of the most popular laptop brands the ThinkPad from IBM?

(Oh, and that said, it's only "half the population" of US (and/or UK). In Europe, L.America, Africa or Asia the name doesn't not mean anything at all).

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#43

Post by batista »

ajross wrote: post #20
goodside wrote: post #2

"So first of all, let’s get one thing out of the way: Diversity is good for a community. "If we can’t agree on this fact, the rest of the article is futile. There are many studies that support this point and if you’re not convinced, this article isn’t for you." I'll bite: What real-world measure of goodness (that isn't tautologically identical to diversity) has been shown to increase as a function of an open-source c…

I'll bite too: state that theorem as its inverse and dare to argue for it: Demographic uniformity is a good thing. "Lack of diversity" means that people are excluded from a community, either actively or passively. That's a "bad thing" pretty much by definition. You're thinking about the metric ("how many women?"), while the author is thinking about the mechnism implied ("something is keeping women out"). The former i…

>I'll bite too: state that theorem as its inverse and dare to argue for it: Demographic uniformity is a good thing.

Well, if you have it, demographic uniformity is a good thing indeed. If anything it translates to less racial tension, more intra-community trust etc.

That doesn't mean that it's good to expel people, minorities etc, to achieve it if you don't have it. But if you do have it it's translates to fewer problems along the way. In the end, you either struggle FOR integration (ie towards "demographic uniformity") or different groups struggle to exclude the others (ie towards "demographic uniformity" again, but in their favor).

Just ask any African country that has been plagued by different ethnicities and cultures into war for power / control...

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#44

Post by batista »

lolcatstevens wrote: post #24
goodside wrote: post #2

"So first of all, let’s get one thing out of the way: Diversity is good for a community. "If we can’t agree on this fact, the rest of the article is futile. There are many studies that support this point and if you’re not convinced, this article isn’t for you." I'll bite: What real-world measure of goodness (that isn't tautologically identical to diversity) has been shown to increase as a function of an open-source c…

Typed like a rich white guy. There's a real barrier in our profession -- how many women are in your office? How many black people? -- and why do you think that is? How comfortable do you think your workplace is to a minority or woman? So how are we to study the effect of minorities on open-source when minorities don't want to work in open-source. It's not the money that's holding them back. Real-world measure of good…

>how many women are in your office?

Speaking for my previous company: 3, for a 12 strong team.

>How many black people?

0

>-- and why do you think that is?*

For black people it's because my country never sent slave merchants to bring black people to work here as slaves, so we haven't artificially built a black population like you did.

For women it's because we never get any competent candidates to hire, if we ever even are approached from a woman applicant.

Mid-nineties, in my university for CS, women were 1/6 to men. In the Math and Applied Math departments it was 1/1. In biology and medicine it was 2/1. In Literature it was 3/1.

And, no, it wasn't about "geeks" being sexist, and that BS.

The notion of the "computer geek" wasn't even known at the time, the jobs most of us expected to work were normal office jobs alongside other office workers, and all the students in the campus (from all departments) were more or less the same (kids just out of high school). Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.

So there you have it.

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#45

Post by hynek »

batista wrote: post #44
lolcatstevens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typed like a rich white guy. There's a real barrier in our profession -- how many women are in your office? How many black people? -- and why do you think that is? How comfortable do you think your workplace is to a minority or woman? So how are we to study the effect of minorities on open-source when minorities don't want to work in open-source. It's not the money that's holding them back. Real-world measure of good…

> how many women are in your office? Speaking for my previous company: 3, for a 12 strong team. > How many black people? 0 > -- and why do you think that is?* For black people it's because my country never sent slave merchants to bring black people to work here as slaves, so we haven't artificially built a black population like you did. For women it's because we never get any competent candidates to hire, if we ever…

The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong. Unless women changed significantly since the mid-nineties which I doubt.

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#46

Post by batista »

hynek wrote: post #45
batista wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how many women are in your office? Speaking for my previous company: 3, for a 12 strong team. > How many black people? 0 > -- and why do you think that is?* For black people it's because my country never sent slave merchants to bring black people to work here as slaves, so we haven't artificially built a black population like you did. For women it's because we never get any competent candidates to hire, if we ever…

The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong. Unless women changed significantly since the mid-nineties which I doubt.

>The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong.

Actually it reinforces my point.

If it took "outreach programs" to make them take interest doesn't it mean that they _weren't_ interested enough in CS in the first place?

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#47

Post by hynek »

batista wrote: post #46
hynek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong. Unless women changed significantly since the mid-nineties which I doubt.

> The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong. Actually it reinforces my point. If it took "outreach programs" to make them take interest doesn't it mean that they _weren't_ interested enough in CS in the first place?

You could put it that way. The point here is that the threshold of interest needed to apply is much higher for women than for men.

These barriers are real but you, as a man, can’t really judge that because you hadn’t to cope with them. You could only try to talk to women (stress is on plural) and try to empathize.

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#48

Post by lolcatstevens »

batista wrote: post #44
lolcatstevens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typed like a rich white guy. There's a real barrier in our profession -- how many women are in your office? How many black people? -- and why do you think that is? How comfortable do you think your workplace is to a minority or woman? So how are we to study the effect of minorities on open-source when minorities don't want to work in open-source. It's not the money that's holding them back. Real-world measure of good…

> how many women are in your office? Speaking for my previous company: 3, for a 12 strong team. > How many black people? 0 > -- and why do you think that is?* For black people it's because my country never sent slave merchants to bring black people to work here as slaves, so we haven't artificially built a black population like you did. For women it's because we never get any competent candidates to hire, if we ever…

Do you realize the mid-90s was almost 20 years ago? Are you only hiring 40 year olds? No significant minority population in your country?

If you don't think the brotastic world fostered in our industry is relevant, well, I guess (like the author) trying to expand our profession and tone down male-centric views just aren't for you. Kudos to you, I guess.

Re: How I Stopped Worrying and Started Loving PyLadies

#49

Post by lolcatstevens »

batista wrote: post #46
hynek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong. Unless women changed significantly since the mid-nineties which I doubt.

> The success of outreach programs prove your “Women just weren't interested enough to put CS in their application forms for college.” wrong. Actually it reinforces my point. If it took "outreach programs" to make them take interest doesn't it mean that they _weren't_ interested enough in CS in the first place?

"If it took "outreach programs" to make them take interest doesn't it mean that they _weren't_ interested enough in CS in the first place?"

Why do you think that is? The money isn't good enough? The life and hours of a developer aren't good enough? Women aren't capable of understanding programming?

Step back, man. You read like yet another HN poster.

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