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Why Our Elites Stink

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#41

Post by Shivetya »

sp332 wrote: post #20
moron wrote: post #4

As far as whether Wall Street is working better than it used to, depends who you ask. But, really, this talk of "elites" tends to put me on edge, because a lot of times it's really about who you define as the elite. I came of age politically at the time when anybody to the left of Rush Limbaugh was an effete "latte liberal", and the word "elite" basically referred to anyone who had a college degree and saw through th…

I think "elites" are people who consider themselves elite, or more specifically, any one who thinks: 1. They can make better life choices, financial decisions etc. than "other" people, and 2. Therefore they should be in charge of other people's lives.

I think the word your looking for is politician.

Fortunately the world has shown there are solutions for them, the trouble is the country usually is in a very bad position before the populace acts on that solution.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#42

Post by bilbo0s »

MaysonL wrote: post #27
rubashov wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On black and Jewish I'm not going to take your point as granted. I'd need an unbiased analysis.

Then your knowledge of American history is sorely lacking.

Uh...

I don't think this "rubashov" guy is an American. No American could possibly have THAT pointed a lack of knowledge of our history. Our educational system is not THAT bad.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#43

Post by mturmon »

rubashov wrote: post #19
drumdance wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but they cared very much whether you were Jewish, black or female. And they still care if your parents went to school there.

On black and Jewish I'm not going to take your point as granted. I'd need an unbiased analysis.

You are ignorant of basic facts, to the point that you should be ashamed of the laziness implicit in your reply.

Do some research, starting with googling "Jim Crow" and "Jewish quota".

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#44

Post by mturmon »

rubashov wrote: post #39
pak wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus... President Lowell of Harvard tried to impose a 12% quota on Jewish admits in the early 20th century, and also attempted to exclude African American students from residing in the freshman dorms. You can find similar behavior at other universities until well after WWII ended. For example, Georgetown's first black st…

OK, so some colleges in the 20s and 30s discriminated against Jews and others (vast majority?) didn't. Your link goes on about Feynman and Salk going to NYU and MIT instead of their first choices. These men both easily found their way to the elite.

The question is not, "were some geniuses able to surmount discrimination", but "was there discrimination".

Your intellectual dishonesty is showing.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#45

Post by tomjen3 »

sp332 wrote: post #20
moron wrote: post #4

As far as whether Wall Street is working better than it used to, depends who you ask. But, really, this talk of "elites" tends to put me on edge, because a lot of times it's really about who you define as the elite. I came of age politically at the time when anybody to the left of Rush Limbaugh was an effete "latte liberal", and the word "elite" basically referred to anyone who had a college degree and saw through th…

I think "elites" are people who consider themselves elite, or more specifically, any one who thinks: 1. They can make better life choices, financial decisions etc. than "other" people, and 2. Therefore they should be in charge of other people's lives.

That is nearly everyone.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#46

Post by tomjen3 »

bediger4000 wrote: post #32
bejar37 wrote: post #13

The interesting point that I got from this article is that the old aristocracy had a sense of responsibility to society and acknowledged the fact that they were privileged. Now that we're in a society where people tend to not think of themselves as wealthy or privileged, how does this self-ignorant meritocratic elite know that they do have a responsibility?

Is there any objective indicator (or "proxy") for this sense of responsibility? I'm thinking there isn't, but maybe someone can suggest measures that show it. I can offer a specific counter-example: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/20... Looks like someone on the inside of the CIA's coup-planning process made a killing in the stock market, as well as in Guatemala. That's not aristocracy with…

It is the way the aristocracy has made money for centuries (stealing it, since they couldn't make it themself).

But the fact that his wealth is stolen may make him more caring of his subjects, knowing that he didn't deserve his fortune, and so they may not deserve their misfortune, whereas someone who build themself up from nothing may very well look down on these people as lazy.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#47

Post by paulsutter »

"Everybody thinks they are countercultural rebels, insurgents against the true establishment, which is always somewhere else"

This is a fascinating point, and predicts the crticisms here about how "elites" are defined. All the successful people i know in the tech industry feel like outsiders and rebels. And as such, it's an interesting question whether the tech industry feels more of a motivation for success than we feel a responsility to society. I don't know that we don't, and I don't know whether some "elites" of the past did. But it's an interesting perspective on meritocracy.

In the tech industry we can be dismissive of bankers, but what an interesting thought if they too feel like rebels and outsiders, rather than being the prep school squares we might envision. When I think of the finance folks I know, they really are more similar to tech folks than different.

I can't help but feel that much of the criticisms here are semantic in nature and result from zeroing in on sentences and phrases rather than the central idea of the article.

I certainly dont have the answer, but David Brooks is making an interesting point. Values are important. And this reminds us of Peter Thiel and Max Levchin advocating for real progress rather than quick wins.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#48

Post by rayiner »

wdewind wrote: post #5
bediger4000 wrote: post #2

Weird. David Brooks in person: rather interesting. David Brooks on paper: easily dismissable. In this case, I dismiss what he says because he's making exactly zero attempt to control for exogenous variables. There's a lot more going on than just changing from a WASP-only aristocracy to a meritocracy of sorts. Vast cultural shifts have necessitated the change, and cause other things to happen as well. Just to pick a f…

I think you missed the point. The problem is in having a system which labels itself meritocratic, because it lacks the concept of an elite. When you have such a system, those who rise to power do so with the personal story that they earned it. Brooks is arguing that while we used to have social values that allowed some classes to project themselves as "elites," at least in those days the elites had a sense of respons…

> "Wall Street firms, for example, now hire on the basis of youth and brains, not experience and character."

I don't know if it was any different 50 years ago, but that's exactly how they hire now.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#49

Post by excuse-me »

js2 wrote: post #35

This is an old argument, and I frankly think it was better made by the man who coined meritocracy: [snip] The business meritocracy is in vogue. If meritocrats believe, as more and more of them are encouraged to, that their advancement comes from their own merits, they can feel they deserve whatever they can get. They can be insufferably smug, much more so than the people who knew they had achieved advancement not on…

Well what do they expect if they kick out a perfectly good elite hereditary monarchy and try and run their little colony with a bunch of meritocratic presidents!
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