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Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

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Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#41

Post by pdimitar »

grey-area wrote: post #17
bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

You seem to have a terrible job, you should fix that. Meanwhile many people happily make a living programming in a mostly stress-free, creative environment where every day brings new challenges and the codebase is well ordered and easy to navigate. Also, tracking down bugs is fun! I can see how it would not be fun in a terrible codebase and have experienced that side of things, but nobody is forcing you to work at a…

> You seem to have a terrible job, you should fix that.

You hiring?

Because what your parent commenter describes are at least 90% of all programming jobs. Everywhere. And I am being generous by not saying 98% because it's likely closer to that number.

"Many people" could be true only in the absolute numerical sense of the world. Say, 500K out of the dozens of millions.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#42

Post by fuzzy2 »

tkiolp4 wrote: post #39

Programming is so different than software engineering, to the point some people (like me) love the former but little by little are starting to hate the latter. Learning for the sake of learning, being able to be picky about what to learn, feeling like a god by creating your own worlds, trial and error… these are all traits of programming. On the other hand, software engineering is about sprints, useless deadlines, us…

That's somewhat arbitrary, don't you think? I think of "programming" as just writing code, "engineering" is coming up with what to code.

Rather, this is about capitalism. You want more freedom in going about your business. You cannot have that in a profit-oriented company. (Rare exceptions apply.) We're so focused on delivering, what we deliver becomes less of a concern, even though it should be the number 1 concern. The rest follows.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#43

Post by pdimitar »

grey-area wrote: post #26
lpapez wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but nobody is forcing you to work at a particular company. It really isn't all that simple. I felt the same way when I was younger - "just switch jobs yo" - but as I grow up I realize that there are increasingly many external life factors forcing people into an unhealthy work environments which can be outside their control. I work in a shitty legacy PHP codebase, but I do it for the great money and can accept the p…

It really is that simple and as I reach the end of my career I appreciate that more. Life is too short to stay in bad situations for a long time. Of course it’s sometimes hard to move/switch job but it’s never impossible and why spend most of your waking life on something you hate with unremitting passion like the OP?

> Life is too short to stay in bad situations for a long time

Life is also too short to get evicted of "your" house (that the bank actually owns) when you miss 3 mortgage payments because you left because "life is too short to stay in bad situations".

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#44

Post by pdimitar »

Swizec wrote: post #10
ludicity wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spend a lot of time talking to non-I.T people due to my partner being a veterinarian and the local improv/music scene. The absolute disdain people have for the idea of sitting at a desk and taking orders from pointy-haired manager is humbling. They're very envious of things like remote work, etc, so we have it pretty cool in lots of ways, but I think there's something to learn for many programmers on the mental hea…

> The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo. I have done the solo thing and have come to realize I much prefer coding for others. There’s just too much annoying bullshit in running a business and I don’t need to deal with almost any of that as an employee despite getting basically all the same freedom, impact,…

> There’s even a point where things switch from your boss telling you what to do to your boss asking you what to do.

How? Actionable step by step, please. Measurable, with before-and-after descriptions.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#45

Post by badpun »

jongjong wrote: post #38

A word of caution for highly intelligent but otherwise regular (not well connected) people. The software industry is the most manipulated industry on the planet and in human history. If you work on any significant, high exposure project, be prepared for unimaginable political f***ery. It's also one of the least meritocratic industries in existence because most big companies have monopolies and can afford to be extrem…

> You don't want to know what happens to those who got trapped in this industry, got their passion for coding completely beaten out of them and can't find any off-ramp.

I want to know. What happens to them?

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#46

Post by rramadass »

tkiolp4 wrote: post #39

Programming is so different than software engineering, to the point some people (like me) love the former but little by little are starting to hate the latter. Learning for the sake of learning, being able to be picky about what to learn, feeling like a god by creating your own worlds, trial and error… these are all traits of programming. On the other hand, software engineering is about sprints, useless deadlines, us…

> On the other hand, software engineering is about sprints, useless deadlines, using the wrong tool for the job, writing code to increase shareholders value, high-performing-team obsession, useless C-level execs, broken tech interviews…

That is not at all what "Software Engineering" is. It is Management's view and practice of what it should be based on the fad of the month/year, simplistic efficiency/productivity models, cluelessness about human psychology and its specific nuances when it comes to knowledge/programming work, erratic/idiotic business goals, bad human resources management and in general not understanding that while one can look to established Engineering disciplines for inspiration one cannot apply those processes/techniques blindly to Software Development since it is so very different.

The classic works of Gerald Weinberg, David Parnas, Barry Boehm etc. gives one the proper viewpoint to have towards "Software Engineering".

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#47

Post by pdimitar »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #20
syndicatedjelly wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"contempt" isn't the word I'd used to describe my feelings towards this existence. It would be more like a deep, existential sadness. That life can fall into these local minimums of optimization - where everything is, on average, good. - I'm happy, but not very - I'm financially successful, but not very - I like what I do, but too much - I'm comfortable, but not too comfortable. It's like my entire personality, likes…

>I'm financially successful, but not very I read about some research recently where the researcher asked people how much money they earned and how much they would need to feel financially secure. No matter how much they earned they all felt they needed about 50% more. It seems we are programmed to feel mildly dissatisfied no matter what our circumstances. I guess that is what drives us on.

This point of view is very popular and I've seen zero evidence for it throughout my entire life. Consider you might be living in a bubble where "the hedonistic treadmill" tired trope makes perfect sense... and that bubble is fairly small. Ever thought of it?

Practically every person I ever asked told me more or less this:

"Yeah sure, who would not want 100K a month? But I am not willing to forfeit my personal and family life for it and that kind of money always comes with a catch. Nah man. I'd be happy with 20K a month but it ain't ever happening while there's always the next a-hole CEO who wants a bigger yacht than his bros in the golf club."

So yeah, I heard your take many times and I have not seen it out there. Not once.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#48

Post by prmph »

tkiolp4 wrote: post #39

Programming is so different than software engineering, to the point some people (like me) love the former but little by little are starting to hate the latter. Learning for the sake of learning, being able to be picky about what to learn, feeling like a god by creating your own worlds, trial and error… these are all traits of programming. On the other hand, software engineering is about sprints, useless deadlines, us…

I think you are confusing the working conditions of writing software in a corporate environment with software engineering. To me software engineering is about skilled application of a wide range of engineering concerns to programming, such as architecture, data modeling, and QA processes.

I find such engineering fun and meaningful. As a software engineer, you understand that is not enough simply to write code that works, the right (or wrong) architecture, for example, can have a massive impact on various stuff like performance, reliability, code-quality, etc.

The BS involved in working for the tech industry as part of a team is another thing entirely.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#49

Post by roenxi »

jongjong wrote: post #38

A word of caution for highly intelligent but otherwise regular (not well connected) people. The software industry is the most manipulated industry on the planet and in human history. If you work on any significant, high exposure project, be prepared for unimaginable political f***ery. It's also one of the least meritocratic industries in existence because most big companies have monopolies and can afford to be extrem…

> Imagine being a really good surgeon with years of experience and a 100% success rate on your surgeries but the hospital fires you because one of your colleagues was jealous and filed a fraudulent complaint claiming that you don't hold your scalpel in the approved way.

Are you sure that isn't just imagining green grass on the other side of the river? Politics comes with the humans, not the profession. Occasionally in hospitals it turns out that you are working with literal serial killers too. I doubt those sociopaths would have any particular compunction about murdering a colleague, let alone filing fake complaints.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#50

Post by pdimitar »

brink wrote: post #5
bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

The funny thing is 15 years ago, programming was nearly everyone's passion for those that were in the field. There were very few "job" type programmers. Not the case today.

Tends to happen when the bean counters take over every position of power.

Everywhere they go, only one thing ever happens: an assembly line. They will work tirelessly to make each and every business and department that.

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