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The Influence of Bell Labs

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Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#41

Post by leptons »

phtrivier wrote: post #9

Okay, I'm really in a sad mood, so: tell me there will be places like that, again, somewhere, ever ? We need this. Like, really, we need someone to have created the xerox part of the 21st century, somewhere about 20 years ago. I honestly though Google would be that - but apparently it's easier to fund R&D on "selling copying machines" than "selling ads". Maybe "selling ads" earn _too much_ money ? I don't know. I kno…

>I honestly though Google would be that - but apparently it's easier to fund R&D on "selling copying machines" than "selling ads". Maybe "selling ads" earn _too much_ money ? I don't know.

Google has put quite a bit of resources into quantum computing research. It's not just for selling ads, though I have no doubt that it will be used for that among other things. But right now there's still no guarantee it's going to pay off at all.

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#42

Post by aguaviva »

linguae wrote: post #28
zusammen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The secret hero of that time was the US government. I’m not talking about the MIC, which is still quite robust and more bad than good. I am speaking more broadly. If you had a practical PhD and were willing to show up at a place at 9:00, you could get a solid upper middle class job with the Feds where you couldn’t get fired unless you broke the law. The government also has always kept academia afloat. It is a privile…

Something that just dawned on me is the downstream effects of United States’ policy regarding science during WWII and the Cold War. The Manhattan Project, NASA, the NSA and all of its contributions to mathematics and cryptography, ARPA, DARPA, and many other agencies and programs not only directly contributed to science, but they also helped form a scientific culture that affected not only government-ran and governme…

I don’t hear about the Oppenheimers and von Neumanns of today’s world

Sadder still is the underlying situaiton behind this: the fact that there's nothing of even remotely comparable significance happening in the public sphere for such minds to devote themselves to, as those man did. Even though the current civilization risk if anything significantly greater than in their time.

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#43

Post by dartos »

Swizec wrote: post #15

Everyone wants Bell Labs, but not the thing that made it possible — high corporate profit taxes. They were making bucket loads of monopoly money and had to put it somewhere or taxes would it away.

I think a lot of people want high corporate profit taxes

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#44

Post by petra »

querez wrote: post #11
phtrivier wrote: post #9

Okay, I'm really in a sad mood, so: tell me there will be places like that, again, somewhere, ever ? We need this. Like, really, we need someone to have created the xerox part of the 21st century, somewhere about 20 years ago. I honestly though Google would be that - but apparently it's easier to fund R&D on "selling copying machines" than "selling ads". Maybe "selling ads" earn _too much_ money ? I don't know. I kno…

> honestly though Google would be that - but apparently it's easier to fund R&D on "selling copying machines" than "selling ads". Maybe "selling ads" earn _too much_ money ? I don't know. I'm pretty sure Google Brain was exactly what you are looking for: People like to think of DeepMind, but honestly, Brain pretty much had Bell Labs/PARCs strategy: they hired a bunch of brilliant people and told them to just "researc…

Yes, it was basic research( guided to the field of machine learning), but between a search monopoly and their autonomous car project, they definitely have a great economic engine to use that basic research and the talent it pulled into Google, even if a lot of it escaped.

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#45

Post by tolerance »

linguae wrote: post #10

During my teenage and college years in the 2000s, I was inspired by what I’ve read about Bell Labs, and I wanted to work as a computer science researcher in industry. I’ve also been inspired by Xerox PARC’s 1970s and 1980s researchers. I pursued that goal, and I’ve worked for a few industrial research labs before I switched careers to full-time community college teaching a few months ago. One thing I lament is the de…

I was going to make a snarky remark like “Researchers are just going to have to write on Substack”.

Then I read this: http://mmcthrow-musings.blogspot.com/2020/10/interesting-opi...

I think the alt-economy that you describe may turn up soon. at least the one that I’m imagining that doesn’t involve registering for Substack.

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#46

Post by linguae »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #38
linguae wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have come to realize that over the years, though I still believe that wealthier companies like Apple, NVIDIA, Facebook, and the like could fund curiosity-driven research, even if it’s not at the scale of Bell Labs or Xerox PARC. On a smaller scale, there is The Institute for Advanced Study where curiosity-driven research is encouraged, and there is the MacArthur Fellowship where fellows are granted $150,000 annual…

If Zuck's obsession with VR isn't curiosity driven research than nothing is. 10 billion yearly losses for something that by all accounts isn't close to magically becoming profitable. It honestly just seems like something he thinks is cool and therefore dumps money in.

It's an example of Zuck's curiosity. When I refer to curiosity-driven research, I mean curiosity driven by the researchers, where the researchers themselves drive the research agenda, not management.

To be fair, though; Facebook, I mean, Meta is a publicly-traded company and if the shareholders get tired of not seeing any ROI from Meta's VR initiatives, then this could compel Zuck to stop. Even Zuck isn't free from business pressures if the funding is coming from Meta and not out of Zuck's personal funds.

Back to Bell Labs and Xerox PARC, my understanding of how they worked is that while management did set the overall direction, researchers were given very wide latitude when pursuing this direction with little to no pressure to deliver immediate results and to show that their research would lead to profits. Indeed, at one point AT&T was forbidden by the federal government from entering businesses outside of their phone business, and in the case of Xerox PARC, Robert Taylor was able to negotiate a deal with Xerox executives where Xerox's executives wouldn't meddle in the affairs of PARC for the first five years. (Once those five years ended, the meddling began, culminating with Bob Taylor's famous exit in 1983.)

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#48

Post by petra »

linguae wrote: post #34
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is that kind of research can only happen with a very rich monopoly. Bell labs came about when AT&T was the monopoly telephone provider in the US. PARC happened when Xerox had a very lucrative monopoly on copy machines.

I have come to realize that over the years, though I still believe that wealthier companies like Apple, NVIDIA, Facebook, and the like could fund curiosity-driven research, even if it’s not at the scale of Bell Labs or Xerox PARC. On a smaller scale, there is The Institute for Advanced Study where curiosity-driven research is encouraged, and there is the MacArthur Fellowship where fellows are granted $150,000 annual…

Maybe it's rare to do curiosity driven research.

But from the days of Bell Labs, haven't we greatly improved our ability to connect between some research concept to the idea of doing something useful, somewhere ?

And once you have that you can be connected to grants or some pre-VC funding, which might suffice, given the tools we have for conceptual development of preliminary ideas(simulation, for ex.) is far better than what they had at Bell?

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#49

Post by osnium123 »

gaze wrote: post #32
phtrivier wrote: post #9

Okay, I'm really in a sad mood, so: tell me there will be places like that, again, somewhere, ever ? We need this. Like, really, we need someone to have created the xerox part of the 21st century, somewhere about 20 years ago. I honestly though Google would be that - but apparently it's easier to fund R&D on "selling copying machines" than "selling ads". Maybe "selling ads" earn _too much_ money ? I don't know. I kno…

No, but you also shouldn't romanticize Bell Labs _too_ much. It was not exactly a fun place to work. You got a 2 year postdoc and then you were out, and those two years were absolutely brutal. Its existence was effectively an accounting fluke. Nothing like it really exists now because it would largely be seen as an inefficiency. Blame Jack Welch, McKinsey, KKR, HBS or whoever you like.

Just curious, are you speaking from personal experience?

Re: The Influence of Bell Labs

#50

Post by OldGuyInTheClub »

gaze wrote: post #32
phtrivier wrote: post #9

Okay, I'm really in a sad mood, so: tell me there will be places like that, again, somewhere, ever ? We need this. Like, really, we need someone to have created the xerox part of the 21st century, somewhere about 20 years ago. I honestly though Google would be that - but apparently it's easier to fund R&D on "selling copying machines" than "selling ads". Maybe "selling ads" earn _too much_ money ? I don't know. I kno…

No, but you also shouldn't romanticize Bell Labs _too_ much. It was not exactly a fun place to work. You got a 2 year postdoc and then you were out, and those two years were absolutely brutal. Its existence was effectively an accounting fluke. Nothing like it really exists now because it would largely be seen as an inefficiency. Blame Jack Welch, McKinsey, KKR, HBS or whoever you like.

I was a postdoc there and I would not say it was brutal. I got a very good salary (far above an academic postdoc), health benefits, relocation, the ok to spend $1000/day on equipment with no managerial review[0], and access to anyone and everyone to whom I felt like speaking. I read horror stories in Science and other journals about people's experiences elsewhere and am grateful that I was spared so much nonsense. It was the greatest university I have ever set foot in. I still feel unworthy of the place.

[0]This was in the early '90s when $1000 went a long way.

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