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Agile Is Dead

agilepilled.com

41–50 of 99 posts

Re: Agile Is Dead

#41
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agile is like communism - it sounds like a great idea. Except it never seems to work anywhere, and everywhere that it turns into a train wreck consisting of 45 minute daily stand-ups and 3 hour meetings arguing about T-shirt sizes or whether points are equivalent to time or not, the only explanation anyone ever proffers is, "well, you weren't doing Agile right". No fucking shit. Nobody can do Agile right. I would arg…

Bullshit. That's like claiming no one can play good football because the Cleveland Browns suck. https://ronjeffries.com/xprog/articles/jatbaseball/

No, and Jeffries' analogy suffers the same strawman fallacy.

The proper analogy would be if no one knew the rules of football/baseball and everyone ended up playing Calvinball instead, then you could say that football/baseball was broken. If following the rules of football produced a product of its own if the rules were followed, it shouldn't matter that other people can follow those rules better.

Or you can point at Monopoly and the fact that so many people destroy the game by playing the "Free Parking gets the kitty" rule and use that as an excuse that Monopoly is a terrible game. Well, Monopoly is a terrible game, even as designed, so that one works.

It's not about how well people follow the "rules" of agile. It's that most everyone who tries doesn't understand the intent of agile.

I would argue that most of the attempts at codifying agile, from Extreme Programming through whatever the latest fad is, are all also wrong. That if you codify agile at all, you're missing the point.

In my experience, the OP article is correct: You need good developers on the team. That's it. That's the secret to success. The methodology you use is nearly irrelevant, though some methodologies do more harm than good.

The fact that XP's flagship project (C3) was an abject failure should have been a clue that maybe it wasn't as good as people want to believe it is. Maybe Kent Beck wasn't "doing agile right" either?

Re: Agile Is Dead

#42

Dumb shits misapplying Agile because "we do standups" are dead. The entire point is and always has been to get the right people working on the right stuff in such a way that they can validate their assumptions and get customer feedback as soon as possible. Not how well you "do Scrum," "increase your velocity," or any of that trash. But actually applying these concepts breaks some managers' brains, and then we get the…

Mostly agree, but process is a way to tame the incompetence, if incompetence wins process has failed

Re: Agile Is Dead

#43
post #24
post #13

The old manifesto is fine, isn't it? --- Individuals and interactions -- over processes and tools Working software -- over comprehensive documentation Customer collaboration -- over contract negotiation Responding to change -- over following a plan --- I still like it. The problem is not the lack of a good manifesto, is that people don't get it. Anyway, I like that someone else apart from me is thinking about these t…

Agile is like communism - it sounds like a great idea. Except it never seems to work anywhere, and everywhere that it turns into a train wreck consisting of 45 minute daily stand-ups and 3 hour meetings arguing about T-shirt sizes or whether points are equivalent to time or not, the only explanation anyone ever proffers is, "well, you weren't doing Agile right". No fucking shit. Nobody can do Agile right. I would arg…

Nobody can do Agile right because there's no one-size fits-all process. There are Agile approaches you can use and see if they work for your team.

The motto is "individuals and interactions over processes and tools" because if a process or tool isn't working for you, you're not supposed to use it.

It's like communism in the sense that it's defined with all the good quantities you'd want in a society or workforce and has several conflicting methods to get there. It's a set of principles that invites people to argue about how their approaches fit into them. Maybe that's the point.

Re: Agile Is Dead

#44
post #13

The old manifesto is fine, isn't it? --- Individuals and interactions -- over processes and tools Working software -- over comprehensive documentation Customer collaboration -- over contract negotiation Responding to change -- over following a plan --- I still like it. The problem is not the lack of a good manifesto, is that people don't get it. Anyway, I like that someone else apart from me is thinking about these t…

I like it too, but was always a problem for me: > Customer collaboration -- over contract negotiation Customer is often too busy with his own work to collaborate meaningfully.

The manifesto intended that your customer can (and often will) be a proxy. You need a PM who gets out of the office, empathizes and understands clients, talks to customers. A big part of what's wrong with "agile" today is BS product managers.

Re: Agile Is Dead

#45
post #13

The old manifesto is fine, isn't it? --- Individuals and interactions -- over processes and tools Working software -- over comprehensive documentation Customer collaboration -- over contract negotiation Responding to change -- over following a plan --- I still like it. The problem is not the lack of a good manifesto, is that people don't get it. Anyway, I like that someone else apart from me is thinking about these t…

Agile was introduced as a way for coders to empower themselves, and make changes to the software process for themselves.

But management came in and started mucking it up. They added more bureaucracy, added silly requirements such as mandatory velocity increases every sprint (numbers go up!). And added even more ceremony than was required with things like "Big Room Planning."

At one F500 company we were mandated to do retrospectives at the end of every sprint. The problems hampering the team's development were all external. 50% of the work was coding. The other 50% was chasing signatures, chasing information and requirements from other teams, dealing with security and inter-management politics, while stand-ups became hour long gab fests as coders tried on a daily basis to impress the attending management. We had no control over it the externals, and management didn't give a fuck.

Re: Agile Is Dead

#46
post #24
post #13

The old manifesto is fine, isn't it? --- Individuals and interactions -- over processes and tools Working software -- over comprehensive documentation Customer collaboration -- over contract negotiation Responding to change -- over following a plan --- I still like it. The problem is not the lack of a good manifesto, is that people don't get it. Anyway, I like that someone else apart from me is thinking about these t…

Agile is like communism - it sounds like a great idea. Except it never seems to work anywhere, and everywhere that it turns into a train wreck consisting of 45 minute daily stand-ups and 3 hour meetings arguing about T-shirt sizes or whether points are equivalent to time or not, the only explanation anyone ever proffers is, "well, you weren't doing Agile right". No fucking shit. Nobody can do Agile right. I would arg…

it's a lot less like communism and much more like a co-op or member-owned/lead organization - which can and totally do work. Think a bunch of farmers banding together to start a credit union vs. a big centrally planned org.

Re: Agile Is Dead

#47
post #43
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agile is like communism - it sounds like a great idea. Except it never seems to work anywhere, and everywhere that it turns into a train wreck consisting of 45 minute daily stand-ups and 3 hour meetings arguing about T-shirt sizes or whether points are equivalent to time or not, the only explanation anyone ever proffers is, "well, you weren't doing Agile right". No fucking shit. Nobody can do Agile right. I would arg…

Nobody can do Agile right because there's no one-size fits-all process. There are Agile approaches you can use and see if they work for your team. The motto is "individuals and interactions over processes and tools" because if a process or tool isn't working for you, you're not supposed to use it. It's like communism in the sense that it's defined with all the good quantities you'd want in a society or workforce and…

Sounds like you expected it to be a silver bullet. Is there something in the agile manifesto that implies that?

Re: Agile Is Dead

#48
"Agile is dead. Long live agile!"

(But really, small-a agile has been ascendant, better, and preferred in many places for at least a decade. That or related takes on agility like Shape Up.)

Re: Agile Is Dead

#49
post #24
post #13

The old manifesto is fine, isn't it? --- Individuals and interactions -- over processes and tools Working software -- over comprehensive documentation Customer collaboration -- over contract negotiation Responding to change -- over following a plan --- I still like it. The problem is not the lack of a good manifesto, is that people don't get it. Anyway, I like that someone else apart from me is thinking about these t…

Agile is like communism - it sounds like a great idea. Except it never seems to work anywhere, and everywhere that it turns into a train wreck consisting of 45 minute daily stand-ups and 3 hour meetings arguing about T-shirt sizes or whether points are equivalent to time or not, the only explanation anyone ever proffers is, "well, you weren't doing Agile right". No fucking shit. Nobody can do Agile right. I would arg…

Yeah, kind of disagree with this. Compared to waterfall, agile is definitely an improvement.

And most teams get the core ideas right in my opinion: small, tight knit teams working closely together, with a "reduced amount" of process (yeah, think the number of meetings in agile is bad, in waterfall, meetings seem like crush you like a tsunami).

Re: Agile Is Dead

#50
post #35
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agile is like communism. Lots of people like to hang external ideas to it. Some valid, some not. Points, t-shirt sizes, figmas, etc... these are _tools_ and _processes_. Why the hell are you complaining about it when it says very clearly that you should focus on people and interactions?

Oh, well if Agile is just a vibe then count me in.

it's more than a vibe, the challenge is it's "Here's a bunch of things that can help; pick and use what works but don't be dogmatic about it". This is impossible to scale, as by definition it's anti-scale, which is why companies run into massive problems and pervert agile into whatever they have now.
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