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A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

bicycledutch.wordpress.com

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Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#41

you need space to do that, not many cities in Europe have the luxury of being built from scratch and having so much space to dedicate to a single intersection. Where i live (in Rome) the streets are like this https://as1.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/04/93/42/24/1000_F_493422444_Hw... edit: anyway the simplest solution is to turn every intersection into a roundabout, no traffic lights needed, clear right of way, cars can't go fas…

[deleted]

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#42
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike lanes are everywhere in most big cities in France too... But they're bad, very bad. We desperately need this principle of elevated bike lanes that cars should be worried to cross. I have code an open-source framework to assess the cyclability of territories : https://villes.plus It only takes into account quality bike lanes, based on OSM data, run every trimestre. For instance, painted bike lanes or shared bus l…

> Bike lanes are everywhere in most big cities in France too... But they're bad, very bad. We once cycled from Germany to Colmar in France. Cycling through Colmar is indeed a scary experience, especially if you have a trailer with a small child in it: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wJU4GLWrmqF9EDes8 Of course it isn't much better in Germany.

> Cycling through Colmar is indeed a scary experience, especially if you have a trailer with a small child in it

I don't mean to detract anything about what you just said.

At the same time, my first thought when I clicked on the link was something like: "Woah, that is pretty nice; a painted bike lane and a single narrow main lane each way so cars can't go very fast".

We have a long way to go for most of North America to become friendly to cyclists.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#43

> Here you can see that a car drivers waiting for people cycling are never in the way of other people in cars. Am I blind or does it only work for just one or maybe two cars?

Bikes are small and fast, and only a small fraction of cars will need to turn here as this is a street going in to a neighborhood. The chances of multiple cars wanting to take this turn and there being a long stream of bikes that holds them up is small. So 'never' is not the right word here, but the times this happens is negligible.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#44
post #29

Isn't it funny how part of the solution is a bit like introducing a one-car buffer into the queue, reducing back pressure? Makes me wonder how much traffic planning and distributed systems could learn from each other (or perhaps already have, I'm not an expert in either).

The article doesn't deal with what happens when the queue gets bigger than one. It looks like a second car would queue on the main road, blocking traffic. To eliminate this you could turn the buffer into a whole extra lane with room for say 5 cars to queue, but this would compromise on the nice feature where the partially turned car gets to completely turn and have great vision of the cycle lanes in both directions.…

The backpressure is a feature and ensures people like me take a bike and train to work instead of driving

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#45
I wish urban designers in Poland learned from this. Our bike lanes are terribly designed, cars turn right into them with very poor visibility. The "solution" is that lawmakers introduce additional restrictions for bikers, which are unclear to everyone, so right now nobody really knows if bikes have priority on bike lane crossings or not.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#46

Although this was in the '80s I remember that I (Dutch) walked to school at the age of 5, in a town (technically a city (Enkhuizen)), mostly through a pedestrian area but I had to cross one busy street. My parents told me later that they secretly followed me the first few times (I never noticed). Just try to image that you live in a country that is so safe you can let small kids walk to school. Try to imagine what a…

it was the 80s, I used to walk to school at 6, passing through an hospital, in a town, quite a big one, named Rome.

It's just that parents nowadays forgot that kids are functioning humans, can learn stuff and can do stuff on their own.

edit: for the downvoters, look at what Japan does or how women in Denmark do with their kids, instead of thinking "this man must be crazy, how in the hell I can leave my kids alone in this world full of dangers, they will surely die" and react like i tried to kidnap your kids to boil them and then eat them.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#47

you need space to do that, not many cities in Europe have the luxury of being built from scratch and having so much space to dedicate to a single intersection. Where i live (in Rome) the streets are like this https://as1.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/04/93/42/24/1000_F_493422444_Hw... edit: anyway the simplest solution is to turn every intersection into a roundabout, no traffic lights needed, clear right of way, cars can't go fas…

I know few cities beat Rome when it comes to their age, but Den Bosch has had city right since 1185 AD...so it is not exactly "built from scratch".

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#48

Isn't it funny how part of the solution is a bit like introducing a one-car buffer into the queue, reducing back pressure? Makes me wonder how much traffic planning and distributed systems could learn from each other (or perhaps already have, I'm not an expert in either).

As someone living in the netherlands, primary use is for decoupling risk. Look at the pedestrian side, they only cross a single lane where they have to look in a single direction. This makes pedestrian behaviour so obvious that its hard to miss someone looking straight at you while you're crossing. Same with car behaviour, no matter where the car is, the nose is pointing straight at you before crossing the conflict zone. The line of communication you have before a potential accident is insanely useful. It does not matter wether a stop sign or right of way was there if you're dead.

The "buffer" reduces decision complexity even more because people treat them like train blocks. The only annoyance I have is when people actually break-and-check at these points even though its better to roll the car slowly trough to save the people right behind from brake checking entire queues.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#49

I'm not sure how common this type of intersection is. I live and bike daily in Amsterdam and it took me about a minute to fully understand what's going on here. The picture seems to show a special case where the intersecting road is bike only, and instead of the normal painted arrows that show where bikes should queue up when making a left, there's an open area off to the left where one would wait behind the "shark t…

Fellow Amsterdam resident here, this kind of layout is very common all over the city (I live in the south of the city but I have seen these all over).

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#50
post #26

The article points out very nicely that it is expensive (in space terms) to have cars integrate safely with the pedestrian and bicycle traffic of dense urban areas. The mismatch in size and speed requires buffer zones that must be dedicated to this function only.

Roughly the same size as if the street had 2 car lanes on each side. In fact this is what I've seen living here in Amsterdam for a few years, every once in a while they remove a lane or two from some street and beef up these security features as well as add more pedestrian space. It's cheaper to maintain extra fat sidewalks and stuff than 2 more lanes of asfalct also.

Even better, the gemeente is actively converting streets into fietsstraat. It is amazing and I love it. It makes my commute through the city so much faster and less stressful. When they did the knip experiment on that big through-road near Waterlooplein and there was no car traffic, it was also fantastic. At that time, I was commuting that direction and it was wild how quiet that part of the city became. Cars really are a terrible nuisance and do not belong in the city.
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