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Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

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Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#41

Post by devonkim »

stavros wrote: post #6
belfalas wrote: post #3

This article gave me some great laughs. It's clear that the author only studied Buddhism for four years (a very short period of time) and has some very fundamental misunderstandings of Buddhist teachings. For example, this explanation of karma: > Together, these tenets imply the existence of some cosmic judge who, like Santa Claus, tallies up our naughtiness and niceness before rewarding us with rebirth as a cockroac…

> It's clear that the author only studied Buddhism for four years (a very short period of time) This kind of response always sounds like victim-blaming to me. If your system of is so complicated that someone can't even hope to get the basics right in four years of study, maybe the right thing to do is, in fact, to ditch it.

Up front though in every other thing I’ve read is that this is going to be hard, so that doesn’t seem like a fair argument either. I don’t tell people that the VI text editor is easy to learn or even that it’s even superior to anything at all, only that’s worked for me and that I hope everyone finds something that works for them. It’s not like we need any more barriers to helping people code and write, yet they all take a set of complex practicing to be proficient given we aren’t wired by genetics or anything do such complex activities such as language and walking upright.

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#42

Post by jack_pp »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #32
DasCorCor wrote: post #24

The author is projecting his Catholic upbringing on the religion. Buddhism is not a singular hierarchical institution in the way Catholicism is. It has evolved and changed as it migrated from India through Tibet, China, Japan, then the USA. Does it have people that take bad actions - yes. Every human institution does.

Exactly. This sounds like he got exposed to some esoteric branch that itself was influenced by Christian Missionaries. Back when the east was being explored by the early colonial powers. Christian Missionaries were doing their thing, and converting all the local religions to Christianity. And out of that came a few Buddhist sects that have real Christian leanings, like the metaphysical ideas, gods, heaven, hierarchy,…

While I've never heard it put exactly that way I have been listening to a lot of Ram Dass and he has a few talks where he discusses Trungpa Rinpoche ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa#Controver... ). The way I remember it for Ram Dass he saw Trungpa as enlightened so all the "bad" stuff he did was sort of ok because that was Trungpa's dharma and he did it in a detached state.

I understood it like.. just as there are people who's dharma is to reduce suffering in the world there are people who produce it and that's fine and normal.

LE: I think Ram Dass used the Hindu meaning for dharma which afaik means "path in life" not "teaching" like in Buddhism

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#43

Post by booleandilemma »

tempaway646464 wrote: post #38

Some of these points are quite good. I've followed Buddhism quite a lot, taking the view that if you ignore the reincarnation bit (which was probably inherited from other religions in the area buddhism sprang from) then buddhism isn't really a religion at all, its more like a philosophy. I've seen people at buddhist retreats suggest some wilds benefits to meditation (magic powers etc). Thats clearly nonsense. But one…

Buddhism is definitely a religion. The founder of the religion himself talked about an order of monks.

What happens with Buddhism in particular, especially in the West, is that people pick and choose what they want to believe from it to the point that whatever they're left with is hardly Buddhism at all, and it does end up being a philosophy.

For an example, ask the next white person you meet who identities as a Buddhist if they believe that there are 8 hells. They're going to tell you that's, to use your word, "nonsense".

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#44

Post by jack_pp »

makeitdouble wrote: post #35
aphantastic wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same can be considered a simple form of Christianity as well though. To an uninformed external observer perhaps. But to be Christian means to accept Christ as your Lord. There is no Christianity without Christ. Not even a “simple form” of it.

You could define Christianity as believing in Christ, bust more and more people consider themselves somewhat Christian without any of the Bible setup. > Although many non-practicing Christians say they do not believe in God “as described in the Bible,” they do tend to believe in some other higher power or spiritual force in the universe. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/05/29/10-key-fi...

Yeah those people are just confused or simply adhering to their group by calling themselves Christians. Being a Christian and not believing in the bible is oxymoronic

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#45

Post by harimau777 »

failbuffer wrote: post #12
whiplash451 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different from stoicism ? Asking genuinely.

Well, it's not yet monetized by YouTube hustle bros, for one thing. :D

I hate to break it to you, but Buddhism was commercialized by Western grifters decades before YouTube!

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#46

Post by jack_pp »

devonkim wrote: post #41
stavros wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear that the author only studied Buddhism for four years (a very short period of time) This kind of response always sounds like victim-blaming to me. If your system of is so complicated that someone can't even hope to get the basics right in four years of study, maybe the right thing to do is, in fact, to ditch it.

Up front though in every other thing I’ve read is that this is going to be hard, so that doesn’t seem like a fair argument either. I don’t tell people that the VI text editor is easy to learn or even that it’s even superior to anything at all, only that’s worked for me and that I hope everyone finds something that works for them. It’s not like we need any more barriers to helping people code and write, yet they all t…

Bad analogy in my opinion. Learning basic vim can be done in a couple of hours and I think would benefit literally every programmer to know the basics because it is so much nicer to even navigate a single line of code using the vi keys (w, b, f, % etc) than any other alternative I've heard of.

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#47

Post by aatarax »

whiplash451 wrote: post #10
aatarax wrote: post #8

There are many flavors of buddhism. I am partial towards the Thai Forest tradition because it emphasizes practice and experience over dogma and so avoids metaphysical discussions. > But what troubles me most about Buddhism is its implication that detachment from ordinary life is the surest route to salvation. The response from the Thai Forest would be to engage in your life skillfully while paying attention to what c…

How is that different from stoicism ? Asking genuinely.

There are some similarities. A key difference is buddhism’s emphasis on meditation and practice as a key part of learning to act skillfully which I don’t think stoicism emphasizes as much.

Stoicism has always felt more “human scale” to me. It talks in terms of human virtues, and how a good life is only found in virtue. Buddhism always felt more focused on the mechanics of the mind and how understanding can be converted into attaining happiness/enlightment.

That being said, I’m not nearly as knowledgeable about stoicism.

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#48

Post by jack_pp »

strken wrote: post #31
wayoverthecloud wrote: post #28

"Meditation can even exacerbate depression, anxiety, and other negative emotions in certain people." If the author had put enough serious time in meditation, he would notice that meditation doesn't exacerbate negative emotions, it just makes you aware of the negative emotions that were already there and that you were ignoring by social media, alcohol, drugs, tiktok, etc. Meditation makes you aware of where the proble…

The anecdotal claims from you and the author are the sort which I'm hesitant to believe without a study of more people.

It is sort of known that meditation can be a double edged sword, it is a tool and like any tool it can be used badly which is why traditionally you would have a teacher.

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#49

Post by DasCorCor »

jack_pp wrote: post #42
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This sounds like he got exposed to some esoteric branch that itself was influenced by Christian Missionaries. Back when the east was being explored by the early colonial powers. Christian Missionaries were doing their thing, and converting all the local religions to Christianity. And out of that came a few Buddhist sects that have real Christian leanings, like the metaphysical ideas, gods, heaven, hierarchy,…

While I've never heard it put exactly that way I have been listening to a lot of Ram Dass and he has a few talks where he discusses Trungpa Rinpoche ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa#Controver... ). The way I remember it for Ram Dass he saw Trungpa as enlightened so all the "bad" stuff he did was sort of ok because that was Trungpa's dharma and he did it in a detached state. I understood it like..…

Or maybe his brutal exile from Tibet due to Chinese invasion traumatized him in some way. I’m not a fan of rationalizing abusive behavior or hypocrisy. People can gain a lot of skill at something but it doesn’t make them a good person. Elon Musk falls in a similar category IMO.

Re: Buddhist Retreat: Why I gave up on finding my religion (2003)

#50

Post by kgdiem »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #32
DasCorCor wrote: post #24

The author is projecting his Catholic upbringing on the religion. Buddhism is not a singular hierarchical institution in the way Catholicism is. It has evolved and changed as it migrated from India through Tibet, China, Japan, then the USA. Does it have people that take bad actions - yes. Every human institution does.

Exactly. This sounds like he got exposed to some esoteric branch that itself was influenced by Christian Missionaries. Back when the east was being explored by the early colonial powers. Christian Missionaries were doing their thing, and converting all the local religions to Christianity. And out of that came a few Buddhist sects that have real Christian leanings, like the metaphysical ideas, gods, heaven, hierarchy,…

Most everyone I’ve encountered in my personal life has been introduced to Eastern beliefs through some western reinterpretation or a “guru”.

I’d read someone, somewhere (maybe here), write about their pilgrimage to somewhere in Asia. He was very disappointed by the monks he’d met and their lack of answers and felt Hinduism or Buddhism was really no different from Christianity.

I too had been disillusioned by religion and considered myself an atheist. Later, though, I found the Dao De Jing, Bhagavad Gita, Dhammapada & Suttanipata* to be life changing. I read them on their own, without seeking further discourse or spiritual guidance, after listening to Duncan Trussel’s podcast for a long while. It’s even changed my perspective on Christian and Jewish theology.

All that to say, it’s personal. It’s my strong opinion that if you go seeking enlightenment from a person or an institution and cannot separate the art from the artist (or the message from the messenger) and do not read the source material you will always come away disappointed.

* haven’t finished the whole book yet

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