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Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

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Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#41

Post by grugagag »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #39
AlotOfReading wrote: post #36

I can easily see where you would get the idea to rub snow on the tissue from my own experiences with second degree frostbite. I did lukewarm water and that hurt . It felt like my hands were going to explode. Every impulse was screaming that it was exactly the wrong thing to do and I should go back outside where the pain was less.

I had the same experience. I stepped into a hot shower with frostbite in two of my toes (just half of my big toe and bit of the the next toe over) and I inadvertently screamed and fell over, ripping the shower curtain down and everything. I wanted out badly. There’s no aching sensation quite like it that I’ve experienced. I’d definitely fail the gom jabbar. I still can’t feel anything in that side of my big toe, and…

You can’t feel anything on that side of your big toe after how long? Is full recovery ever expected?

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#42

Post by grugagag »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #20
bongodongobob wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's extremely painful. I jumped into a frozen lake years ago and ran to a shower afterwards. Turned on the water, just slightly warm and it felt like my fingers and toes got smashed by a hammer.

A friend was a Vietnamese POW. The first torture done was to tourniquet his upper arms until they colored to black and then loose the bindings (repeatedly). Returning circulation is much more brutal than it might sound.

Whe sometimes I sleep on my one of my arms and they go numb, when I reposition and I start to feel it it comes with immediate and excruciate pain that luckily dies in intensity after a few moments. I wonder if this is just compressed nerves or it’s the blood supply that was cut off.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#43

Post by Interloper2099 »

Etheryte wrote: post #23
cyberax wrote: post #17

One thing to keep in mind, is that if somebody is hypothermic and not just frostbitten, then rapid re-warming is a bad idea. Body protects itself by shutting down blood flow to skin and extremities, keeping the core warm. So if the extremities are rapidly re-warmed, then blood vessels in them dilate. And then blood starts flowing through oxygen-depleted tissues that are cold and full of accumulated metabolic waste. N…

This is interesting, I was taught that instead of the metabolic waste, the issue was the cold blood from extremities quickly cooling down the internals once allowed to circulate freely. Do you have any references for this?

Reperfusion injury can occur after a crush injury. The myoglobin, creatine, potassium and phosphorus from destroyed muscle cells cause kidney damage. The potassium is really important as it is supposed to stay locked within cells and high levels can cause arrhythmias. For more info look up crush syndrome and reperfusion injury. This is all slightly different from hypothermia but may share some pathways if cells are destroyed.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#44

Post by grugagag »

When I was a kid we’d be spending a whole day playing in snow. When we’d come home in the evening with ice on the shoes, hair and cold hands and feet - but not as bad as getting real frost bites - would have a little warm up. My grandmother taught me to wash my hands with cold water at first then gradually add warm water. I still remeber cold water felt warm on frozen hands. Also many times when my hands were cold I’d make some snowballs, feel cold for a few seconds then my hands would start warming up really fast, like glowing with heat. I think there’s something to it, though being a bit cold and having frostbites is a big difference. I personally never experience any frostbite.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#45

Post by DiscourseFan »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16
DiscourseFan wrote: post #2

Yeah but clearly people wouldn’tve been doing it if it hadn’t worked, so what is the reason for trying that specific traditional method?

> people wouldn’tve been doing it if it hadn’t worked Now do trepanation and corpse medicine. Like, look around you. We’re a stupid species. Not consistently. But a lot. We’ve always been a bunch of apes banging around.

I don't think its smart to act like we are somehow at the pinnacle of human knowledge and nothing we've done before can be more effective than what we know works now.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#46

Post by DiscourseFan »

robbiep wrote: post #10
DiscourseFan wrote: post #2

Yeah but clearly people wouldn’tve been doing it if it hadn’t worked, so what is the reason for trying that specific traditional method?

Without being overly condescending, you do realise that most of the things that have been done throughout history, along with many we still do, are the result of cultural practice and have no evidence base whatsoever? Whilst 1956 seems to be a fairly late date to stop what would seem in the surface to be a counter intuitive practice, 80 years earlier blood letting was still in vogue

I don't understand though. Someone else brought up trepanation, but pre-modern humans lived in environment where they banged there head around a lot and it may have led to better outcomes for some people to get a hole in their skull so they retained it as a cultural practice. Why would a bunch of people decide, up until 1950 or so, that it was a good idea to rub snow into your feet when they were frostbitten just because it was some practice with no strong basis in reality. The alternative is doing nothing, so what would this do that would at least make people think it was working? Because it had to look like it was working, even if it really wasn't.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#47

Post by DiscourseFan »

exe34 wrote: post #12
robbiep wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being overly condescending, you do realise that most of the things that have been done throughout history, along with many we still do, are the result of cultural practice and have no evidence base whatsoever? Whilst 1956 seems to be a fairly late date to stop what would seem in the surface to be a counter intuitive practice, 80 years earlier blood letting was still in vogue

people still pray to personal gods to this day, expecting them to prioritise their petty little lives while others are suffering/dying of things that could be trivially solved with a bit of knowledge and technology.

Praying to gods has a correlation with better medical outcomes, thats why they have chapels in hospitals. Same thing with visits from friends and families. Its not like everything can be solved by "advancing" technology.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#48

Post by DiscourseFan »

tharkun__ wrote: post #38
exe34 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people still pray to personal gods to this day, expecting them to prioritise their petty little lives while others are suffering/dying of things that could be trivially solved with a bit of knowledge and technology.

And people "manifest" and somehow don't wonder why randomly "it works" or "doesn't work". "Must've done something wrong while manifesting this time :shrug:" :facepalm: !!!!!1111eleven

Having the confidence to believe that you are able to do something almost certainly makes it more likely that you'll do it. Its bullshit but it probably works unless its for basically impossible things. You can manifest a promotion if you believe in yourself and work hard (and have an idea that your boss maybe likes you). People are also not so bad at predicting things, you aren't going to manifest something that you have no hope is actually going to happen. But of course with something like a lottery ticket its stupid.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#49

Post by DiscourseFan »

norgie wrote: post #5
DiscourseFan wrote: post #2

Yeah but clearly people wouldn’tve been doing it if it hadn’t worked, so what is the reason for trying that specific traditional method?

This was addressed in the accepted answer: > rapid rewarming from open campfires or other sources of dry heat caused so much devastation.....Dry heat from ....open fires....cannot be controlled. Excessively high temperatures are usually produced, resulting in a combined burn and frostbite, a devasting injury that leads to far greater tissue loss. Sounds like it was an overreaction to applying excessive heat to the fr…

No it was a full alternative to it.

Re: Why did people rub snow on frozen feet? (2017)

#50

Post by aaomidi »

mistrial9 wrote: post #21
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend was a Vietnamese POW. The first torture done was to tourniquet his upper arms until they colored to black and then loose the bindings (repeatedly). Returning circulation is much more brutal than it might sound.

ok that is terrible, but note that gently slowing circulation to arms or legs and then returning circulation is a simple theraputic action that has been used for millennia

Trying to understand the relevance of this comment
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