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BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

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41–50 of 126 posts

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#41
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with the tariff approach is that they generally apply to countries that actually have an auto industry, but not all countries have one. Countries without tariffs will enjoy lots of competition and cheap prices, while established automakers with tariff protections will be squeezed out. I don't see how it's possible to stop China, even if rich western countries band together.

The problem is when it's not fair competition. Certainly Tesla has received government subsidies, but I expect their numbers to pale in comparison to whatever money the Chinese government has directly and indirectly poured into BYD. Flooding foreign markets with your heavily-subsidized cars in order to kill your competition is great for you, but not so great for competitors in the market of sale.

Flooding is an emotive term. Surely a "flood" of imports only happens when there is sufficient demand to justify shipping in volume?

The subsidies are more interesting. When does legitimate assistance become a subsidy? Eg if Biden/successor invests in domestic lithium mines, is that a subsidy? If they offer buyers $x rebates, is that?

Looking at the last example, if BYD said to a US buyer, "this car is $x but we'll give you a rebate", that would seem to be just as fair as Uncle Sam offering one. The objection would seem to be that it was the Chinese government acting as the source of cash.

I suggest that the answer is that noone should offer direct purchase subsidies, but government can offer whatever investment they like to support their industries. I cant escape a feeling that the US and European car industry are crying foul because (despite Musk's attempts to drag them into the future) they havent figured out how to make electric vehicles profitably.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#42
post #3

Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as well as government aid for buying said vehicles, but it's very unclear how they're going to fare outside of China.

BYD is already one of the top manufacturers for EV Buses globally. IIRC most (all?) of the electric GBuses in the Bay Area were by BYD, although they don't quite have the range to do the longer routes.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#43
post #15

I wonder how much Tesla's support of Trump is hurting his sales. Without going public on Trump, would his sales have increased more ? Right now seems most of his customers may be from people concerned about the environment and/or Climate Change. As time goes on, that will probably change. There is a reason heads and owners of Companies try and stay out of politics.

Tesla just couldn't win the competition. Sure some people are avoiding Tesla because of Elon, but they only say that because there ARE other options. Those self same people often continue to use Twitter because they just cannot stand the FOMO of not being always online, despite it being Elon's personal echo chamber.

Tesla did well initially because they dared to sell a normal car that happened to use electricity. Other automakers finally gave in and did the same. Why would I buy a car from Tesla, who has known QA issues and commands a weird premium price and hasn't "updated" their vehicles in a decade (though I don't personally get that complaint) when I could buy a Hyundai? Or a VW?

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#44
post #3

Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as well as government aid for buying said vehicles, but it's very unclear how they're going to fare outside of China.

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

> ...they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA.

If Trump is elected, expect then NAFTA to be changed to exclude competitors to Tesla in some fashion. There is already a lot of expectations that a Trump win will heavily benefit Elon: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-mus...

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#45
post #15

I wonder how much Tesla's support of Trump is hurting his sales. Without going public on Trump, would his sales have increased more ? Right now seems most of his customers may be from people concerned about the environment and/or Climate Change. As time goes on, that will probably change. There is a reason heads and owners of Companies try and stay out of politics.

I wonder how much of Musk's support for Trump is due to being given the cold shoulder (followed by aggressive prosecution) by the current administration.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#46

I've been happily driving a BYD Atto 3 for ~6 months now. Very happy with it, its got a lot of nice software and hardware features, carplay/android auto works well, driving is nice and very smooth (especially on sport mode), and my daughter loves playing with the "strings" on the doors. The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. Is it better than a Tesla? Probably not - there are clearly…

> The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? I am pretty sure Teslas sold in my country (NZ) have BYD batteries.

If OP is comparing their experience in your BYD to Tesla's marketing material, that's not a correct comparison. Tesla battery ranges should generally be derated quite a bit to align them with how the rest of the industry measures range.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

> ...they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. If Trump is elected, expect then NAFTA to be changed to exclude competitors to Tesla in some fashion. There is already a lot of expectations that a Trump win will heavily benefit Elon: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-mus...

God forbid a US automaker benefit for providing Americans jobs

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#48
post #15

I wonder how much Tesla's support of Trump is hurting his sales. Without going public on Trump, would his sales have increased more ? Right now seems most of his customers may be from people concerned about the environment and/or Climate Change. As time goes on, that will probably change. There is a reason heads and owners of Companies try and stay out of politics.

Tesla just couldn't win the competition. Sure some people are avoiding Tesla because of Elon, but they only say that because there ARE other options. Those self same people often continue to use Twitter because they just cannot stand the FOMO of not being always online, despite it being Elon's personal echo chamber. Tesla did well initially because they dared to sell a normal car that happened to use electricity. Oth…

Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas, so I hardly think the competition has caught up.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#49
post #3

Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as well as government aid for buying said vehicles, but it's very unclear how they're going to fare outside of China.

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

For me it’s not so much about the tariffs. Personally, I have concerns about driving a network connected car that is ultimately controlled by one of my country’s main geopolitical adversaries. There is a nonzero chance that if war breaks out between them, best case they spy on me or brick some functionality, and worst case they weaponize a software update to do something malicious.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I would love to be wrong about these concerns, as there will be some who do purchase Chinese EVs. Also it is not about xenophobia, it is about geopolitics and cybersecurity. If someone can reply showing me how my concerns about the CCPs ability to weaponize these cars are unfounded, I would greatly appreciate it.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#50
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have any insight into how much the Chinese government supports BYD? $2B seems like a pretty small number, to be honest. I would expect the number to be at least an order of magnitude (or two!) higher for BYD. At any rate, $2B is a drop in Tesla's bucket; their quarterly revenue is around $25B now. That $2B may have been given at a critical time in Tesla's development and growth, but today it would be 2% of thei…

From: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " So it sounds like…

Which countries weren't offering tax rebates?
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