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Jaywalking legalized in New York City

theguardian.com

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Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#41

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

leptons wrote: post #31
olliej wrote: post #2

Not growing up in america I never understood what jaywalking was - I legit assumed it was a pedestrian crossing a freeway because nothing else made sense. Growing up I was taught explicitly to do what in the US was a crime: crossing between intersections because it is vastly safer than crossing at intersections. Obviously, there's a more complex issue with jaywalking where it is a crime that is trivially easy to enfo…

In most places, jaywalking typically means crossing outside of a crosswalk while being within a short distance of a crosswalk. It's more dangerous for pedestrians near crosswalks, cars are turning and have limited visibility, so using the crosswalk (when crossing is allowed, if there's a crossing indicator) is the rule. If you are a certain distance away from a crosswalk, you are allowed to cross the road but must yi…

I think "no jaywalking because safety" would make more sense if crosswalks were totally safe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in NY, can't traffic move over crosswalks even against traffic lights, in some circumstances? I always find that confusing-and frightening!

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#42

Post by relistan »

echoangle wrote: post #26
reedf1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted you've misinterpreted the posters point - but I will respond to your perception of his point (which I agree with). You could easily imagine a world where pedestrians have the right of way on the streets, and cars "request access to the road" in a similar way that pedestrians do. Actually, if this is not easy for you to imagine - it suggests enormous internal bias.

It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over. Pedestrians are more nimble than cars, so it kind of makes sense that cars have the right of way. As far as I know, large container ships have right of way over small vessels for the same reason.

This speed limit, or lower, is pretty common in major European cities. Helps divert investment to things more beneficial to society than individual car ownership, improves transit, cleans up cities, makes for great public spaces.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#43

Post by hnbad »

94b45eb4 wrote: post #25

So if you are waiting at an intersection pedestrian crossings and getting impatient you can just move over a bit and cross anyway?

Did you read the article? Pedestrians can always cross but they then don't have the right of way and have to yield to traffic. Basically everyone can keep doing what they've been doing all along but police can no longer arrest them for it through selective enforcement.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#44

Post by simgt »

freefaler wrote: post #35
tmnvix wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not 'asking' if it's a law. If you're legislating that people can't just walk across a deserted street where it's most convenient then you have a broken law. Legislate against disrupting traffic if you really need to. Not disrupting traffic? What's the problem?

If the street is empty then it's easy to recognize that. However what will the rule be if there is a car, but far away, or not that far away. It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it. Ambiguity will be the problem and it is solved by the rule of "not crossing at all". The lesser of 2 evils.

> It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it.

Maybe the problem here is that a 2 ton SUV shouldn't be driven at 50mph when pedestrians are anywhere near. I always find it interesting how the ones advocating for the absolute freedom of owning and driving an SUV everywhere, to carry 70kg of human flesh, are usually also the ones asking for the restriction of the freedom of other users of the public space.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#45

Post by freefaler »

tsimionescu wrote: post #40
freefaler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the street is empty then it's easy to recognize that. However what will the rule be if there is a car, but far away, or not that far away. It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it. Ambiguity will be the problem and it is solved by the rule of "not crossing at all". The lesser of 2 evils.

Cars are already supposed to slow down if they see pedestrians on the street, even if the pedestrian is crossing illegally, same as they are supposed to avoid drivers doing illegal things. It's the police's job to punish illegal behavior, not drivers'. So, in the situation you describe, the solution is clear: the car has to slow down, and any police officer is supposed to notice that the car had to slow down and issu…

Rules for people are not the same as a code for a compiler. You may enact a rule, but people are not guaranteed they will comply with it either because they will brake it or they will forget/ignore it.

If a bad rule is enacted and it kills 100 people per year more, will enforcement of the rule bring back those 100 people?

Rules should take into account the stupid things people will do and that in real life you won't get 100% compliance and enforcement won't get you to 100%. (many real life examples)

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#46

Post by badgersnake »

reedf1 wrote: post #20
readthenotes1 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking pedestrians to cross streets where cars are stopped and they are mostly protected? How is that broken?

Granted you've misinterpreted the posters point - but I will respond to your perception of his point (which I agree with). You could easily imagine a world where pedestrians have the right of way on the streets, and cars "request access to the road" in a similar way that pedestrians do. Actually, if this is not easy for you to imagine - it suggests enormous internal bias.

That's literally how it works in the UK

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#48

Post by nobody9999 »

echoangle wrote: post #26
reedf1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted you've misinterpreted the posters point - but I will respond to your perception of his point (which I agree with). You could easily imagine a world where pedestrians have the right of way on the streets, and cars "request access to the road" in a similar way that pedestrians do. Actually, if this is not easy for you to imagine - it suggests enormous internal bias.

It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over. Pedestrians are more nimble than cars, so it kind of makes sense that cars have the right of way. As far as I know, large container ships have right of way over small vessels for the same reason.

>?It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over.

In NYC, the speed limit is 25 miles per hour. What's more, there are plans to reduce that to 20mph in a bunch of places.

Moral: Don't drive in NYC.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#49

Post by pm3003 »

e1g wrote: post #11
vasco wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking is any crossing in a wrong / illegal way, not about intersections specifically. Mostly it's about not using crosswalks, so I don't see how it collides with what Europe does. In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road. And then you have countries where the crosswalk lights are mere decorations.

I had an identity crisis in Germany when, at 2am on a deserted road, a group of hooligan-looking teenage boys told me off for crossing on red.

Something like that happened to me on my first day as an adult in Germany. Wide road, Sunday afternoon, visibility over 1km in both directions, not a car in sight. I was accompanied by a girl from the place where I was to work. I had just met her and she was showing me to the nearby convenience store.

She suddenly started screaming when I crossed the street while the pedestrian light was red. I didn't get what the problem was so I crossed back, to much drama.

She (or her boyfriend) later told me there was a long-running campaign during the 90s aiming to curb pedestrian death, that featured vivid TV spots showing kids die because they routinely saw adults jaywalking and imitated them.

So jaywalking = killing children.

Also German children of all ages are encouraged to say to jaywalkers "You're not a good example for the children.". It happened to me more than once.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#50

Post by ithkuil »

freefaler wrote: post #35
tmnvix wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not 'asking' if it's a law. If you're legislating that people can't just walk across a deserted street where it's most convenient then you have a broken law. Legislate against disrupting traffic if you really need to. Not disrupting traffic? What's the problem?

If the street is empty then it's easy to recognize that. However what will the rule be if there is a car, but far away, or not that far away. It's a slippery slope with a 2 ton SUV driving at 50mph and a person "interpreting" that it's not disrupting it. Ambiguity will be the problem and it is solved by the rule of "not crossing at all". The lesser of 2 evils.

I think jaywalking being technically illegal allows law enforcement to use an expedient to arrest people they want to arrest for other reasons, for example, there is no law that would allow to arrest you for "walking while black", but crossing the street at an unauthorized point? Yeah that works

See a judge doing the right thing:

https://youtu.be/0PUgbArgXJA?si=9-8viC2MM-mIGEFe

We don't need a society that relies only on judges doing the right thing. We need better laws

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