Is this considered creepy in all cultures? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#41

Post by cloudier » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:41 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #40

cloudier wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not by me. I make no assumptions on the matter at all, the entire topic never even crosses my mind...This is a common complaint? I've never even noticed the gender of someone contributing an article. Who are these people who tally these things up? Anextio was pointing out the the tech industry is sexist, not trying to call you in particular sexist. It's cool that you make no assumptions if that's the case (although…

> I find that a bit unbelievable I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online. > that show that the author is male I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came is the name on github. > women in the tech community don't get the credit they deserve. Why do they deserve credit as women ? Who cares if they are women? Give them credit for doing som…

> I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online.

I didn't mean paying conscious attention to the gender - I was thinking of automatic assumptions people make about others. It's natural to make assumptions about people; it's immoral to pretend they don't exist or to object to reducing their effects.

> I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came is the name on github.

Steven is a masculine name.

> Why do they deserve credit as women? Who cares if they are women? Give them credit for doing something as a human, not for their gender.

I entirely agree, however that doesn't stop people from making incorrect and broad generalisations about groups of people who share characteristics that are entirely out of their control.

> Yes it is. The fact that you think it isn't is a discredit to your education.

'He' is the unmarked pronoun but it's still gendered (i.e. masculine). 'It' isn't gendered, but is also generally used for inanimate objects rather than people.

> And yet you can't even tell which it is despite me writing about gender. (And no, I'm not going to tell you.)

Haha, only because I thought you would get angry if I made any assumptions about who you are.

> I ignore gender for things that have nothing to do with gender. There are plenty of things (including online) where gender matters, but programming isn't one of them.

Like I said before, I think that's cool, even if I find it a bit unbelievable that you don't make assumptions about people you meet online.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#42

Post by ClHans » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:25 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #12

calibraxis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, the only 3rd party blogpost on this linked here (Michael G Schwern's [1]) didn't link to the module nor author, so as not to "embarrass the author further". Many males serious about feminism (or "anti-patriarchy", whatever you want to call it) take care to not provoke costs which females must bear, and try to helpfully inform. Now, if you don't want to listen, please don't feel you're forced to. There's... ex…

Wow. Couldn't disagree more with that blog. "This Is What A Computer Scientist Looks Like" is exactly the wrong way to "empower". It's a photo. Who cares what you look like? You are a programmer - the only thing I should care about is what your code looks like. > [from the blog] Maybe give them the reigns to make the big decisions and you handle the grunt work. Are you kidding? I should do that because they are femal…

> This Is What A Computer Scientist Looks Like" is exactly the wrong way to "empower". It's a photo.

Fine, don't put yourself on the list. How others feel empowered and make community is not your call.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#43

Post by jack-r-abbit » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:04 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #18

Loic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is, in no other fields you would have people thinking about doing this. It is just that they do not care. It is not part of the culture to focus on women from a sexual/stalking point of view. They only care about lack of women in management and engineering positions and the salary difference. Or how to better manage the maternity leaves in the company to keep interesting jobs for the women while potentially…

I will note purely that CPAN has quite a lot of similar modules categorizing authors by several attributes, most notably country of origin. From that perspective, it's very easy to believe the author acted entirely in good faith and from a non-creepy perspective, without having to invoke the idea that it's some kind of sexual/stalking thing.

You are forgetting one thing: If any given situation can be seen two or more ways, there are people that will naturally see it in the worst possible way. It is no different when it comes to people really determined to find examples of The Man crushing all women.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#44

Post by jack-r-abbit » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:14 AM UTC

cloudier wrote: post #41

ars wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find that a bit unbelievable I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online. > that show that the author is male I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came is the name on github. > women in the tech community don't get the credit they deserve. Why do they deserve credit as women ? Who cares if they are women? Give them credit for doing som…

> I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online. I didn't mean paying conscious attention to the gender - I was thinking of automatic assumptions people make about others. It's natural to make assumptions about people; it's immoral to pretend they don't exist or to object to reducing their effects. > I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came…

> 'He' is the unmarked pronoun but it's still gendered (i.e. masculine). 'It' isn't gendered, but is also generally used for inanimate objects rather than people.

I think I will start referring to everyone as (s?)he regardless of whether I know their gender or not. Seems the safest.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#45

Post by darkestkhan » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:01 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #44

cloudier wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online. I didn't mean paying conscious attention to the gender - I was thinking of automatic assumptions people make about others. It's natural to make assumptions about people; it's immoral to pretend they don't exist or to object to reducing their effects. > I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came…

> 'He' is the unmarked pronoun but it's still gendered (i.e. masculine). 'It' isn't gendered, but is also generally used for inanimate objects rather than people. I think I will start referring to everyone as (s?)he regardless of whether I know their gender or not. Seems the safest.

And what about "one"? Quite archaic but gender neutral :)

And there is name "Maria" in Polish which is feminine name but I personally know guys bearing this name so maybe there is woman with name "Steven" - are you sure?

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#46

Post by cloudier » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:40 PM UTC

darkestkhan wrote: post #45

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'He' is the unmarked pronoun but it's still gendered (i.e. masculine). 'It' isn't gendered, but is also generally used for inanimate objects rather than people. I think I will start referring to everyone as (s?)he regardless of whether I know their gender or not. Seems the safest.

And what about "one"? Quite archaic but gender neutral :) And there is name "Maria" in Polish which is feminine name but I personally know guys bearing this name so maybe there is woman with name "Steven" - are you sure?

Nope, but seeing as he doesn't mention his gender on the subsequent blogpost I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#47

Post by bsphil » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 7:18 PM UTC

anextio wrote: post #11

Loic wrote: post #4

It is not creepy in all fields. It is creepy in computer programming/science. The problem is the culture in this special field with a lot of allusion to pornography, sexual abuse, etc. When you have well known figures in the Ruby community explicitly telling that it is good to use porn to sell software technology, you have a problem. In my field, process engineering and biotechnology, even if some groups are extremel…

In what field is it not creepy to have a man keep a documented list of all the women contributors for purely 'curiosity' reasons?

What about Acme-CPANAuthors-Indonesian?