Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#41

Post by synotic » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 4:47 AM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #25

So what do B and C developers do? Not everyone can be in the A tier. Wouldn't a better strategy for society be to focus on extracting maximum value and output from people of all capabilities? Just pay less capable people less, and give them smaller responsibilities.

I think it depends on what you're trying to achieve. For example if you're trying to pull off the iPhone in one year with 5 guys, it makes sense to spend time finding the best guys.

You can also try to find 15-20 decent guys, but there are benefits to smaller teams — lower communication cost, a potential compounding effect when smart people work together, etc…

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#42

Post by alexpenny » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 4:49 AM UTC

MaxGabriel wrote: post #32

keiferski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that the color: is set to #404040, not black. Most people aren't aware that pure black is hard on the eyes; a slightly grey black is much more readable.

Can you or Alex expand on this? I'd especially want to know if this was true on non-white backgrounds.

Yes its especially true for non-white backgrounds. It all has to do with contrast. With black on white we have 100% contrast, if we use dark gray on light gray the contrast becomes say 70%. The lighter the contrast the easier it is on the eyes. Here's a quick example of what it looks like.

http://cl.ly/1p103C2z1N220L1W213l

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#43

Post by flywheel » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

Try marijuana. No, really. I know "A" types who do, and I'm looked at as being "A" by my peers. I'm far more creative than any of my co-workers and my contributions frequently put us far ahead of the competition. I'm prolific and focused on writing code. Give me some music I like, some of California's best herb, and as many LCDs as I can fit on a desk and I deliver results day after day after day. I know it doesn't work for everyone though. Smoking is optional when you can get it in a cookie or a pill or 100 other ways. But seriously, if you are feeling like a B or a C and you think you have a passion for code but aren't as creative as you could be, you may want to expand your mind a bit. It worked for Steve Jobs after all.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#44

Post by chrischen » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 4:54 AM UTC

jmsduran wrote: post #31

chrischen wrote: post #25

So what do B and C developers do? Not everyone can be in the A tier. Wouldn't a better strategy for society be to focus on extracting maximum value and output from people of all capabilities? Just pay less capable people less, and give them smaller responsibilities.

> "So what do B and C developers do?" Strive to be A developers. Sorry if it sounds too harsh, I personally classify myself as a B developer.

Sure but the reality is that there will always be B and C people, and sorry if it sounds harsh, but some people will never achieve A status. Someone's going to have to give them something productive to do.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#45

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:02 AM UTC

taligent wrote: post #14

saddino wrote: post #9

IMO truly great developers are not just developers. They are also software architects, UX and UI designers, network engineers, etc. "A" developers knock down learning curves and assimilate everything about software creation innately .

This is absolutely the right answer. I would add that the BEST developers are those that have some business or project management background. That way they can put what they are doing in the greater context of the organisation. As well as add a lot more weighting to maintainability and future flexibility over the "latest cool thing".

At this point you're getting a little overgeneral, I think. One of Steve Jobs' A players was undoubtedly Bill Atkinson, but what he lacked in business knowledge, he more than made up for in technical skills. If you're an A player working in one of Intel or Microsoft's compilers teams, you win based on deep technical knowledge, not understanding the "greater context of the organisation".

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#46

Post by benlakey » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:05 AM UTC

dabent wrote: post #37

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

I believe that the top trait in A players is the same as in the top founders, which is determination [1]. That determination often manifests itself as the desire to understand how something really works, rather than glossing over the details, the drive to learn a new language well enough to use it to implement ideas, to take on the learning curve for a new tool or system, to automate something, or to test their code…

Good stuff, dabent. I agree; Abstractions are valuable tools, but it's important to know whats underneath the abstraction, for when the abstraction leaks, or when it's the wrong tool for the job.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#47

Post by benlakey » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:08 AM UTC

TimGebhardt wrote: post #39

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

Fake it 'til you make it. Throw yourself at problems that you think are over your head. If you care and you want to do good work you'll figure out a way to get something done. Especially if you have a good mentor or someone that can guide you to answers to hard questions or take you under their wing. Learn to effectively communicate and then communicate with your peers. You'll never know what you don't know unless yo…

Fake it 'till you make is time and time again proven itself to work, especially when you surround yourself with people smarter than yourself.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#48

Post by ori_b » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:08 AM UTC

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

There will always be people better than you, no matter how good you are. Realize this, and try to learn from them. While I can't tell you if you have the raw talent, constantly trying to improve is important.

In a way, a bit of neuroticism about your skill will help you. Complacency is a killer.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#49

Post by PakG1 » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:10 AM UTC

omgsean wrote: post #15

zwieback wrote: post #12

We hear this a lot and somehow feel it's true but there are no reliable metrics and little verifiable data so ultimately it's just talk.

Agreed, I'm getting kind of sick of these articles. It's like if the developer community here started posting fluff pieces about how you need to use the best programming languages and the most optimized frameworks. Maybe I'm out of step with the recruiting community but are there people who are sitting around going "let's round up some really mediocre candidates?"

When you just need some CRUD stuff made in various spots of your big company, mediocre will be just fine. Yes, there are people who are sitting around doing this.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#50

Post by benlakey » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:11 AM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #38

andrewljohnson wrote: post #35

Is the meta-leaning here that you should not hire programmers in the Bay Area, until you can pay $120-200K + stock for experienced guys, and 80-90K for top college grads? Maybe that sets a hard target when you know to grow your start-up to the third developer, when bootstrapping. Can you pay someone 100-200k per year? Time to grow.

No. For one, that was said 10 or 15 years ago and things change. Second, talented engineers (like everyone) value a variety of things other than money. Finally, other competencies are becoming as important or more so than raw engineering for a lot of companies.

Agree. Financial compensation is actually often much lower on the list of things software developers value at a company, particularly when they are 'A' players. Solving problems, working with other 'A' players, and stretching ones abilities become more important. You do have to pay competitively though.